Where should we move to? (Long)

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  • dfsuther
    Forum Newbie
    • Oct 2003
    • 57
    • Pittsburgh, PA, USA.

    #46
    ElRay wrote:
    quote:
    Hopefully I'll dogge one more "You insulted my town bullet, but Pittsburg seemed to have that same past it's peak, which was during the Industrial Boom, run down, steel town, feel. Again, it's been a while, plus I was just passing through, so I didn't really have a chance to see much off the beaten path.
    No "You insulted my town" bullet here... but a bullet for mis-spelling: That's Pittsburgh-with-an-H and don't you forget it!!!

    More seriously, if it's been more than 10 years or so your impression is thoroughly out of date. It is true that the downtown area is less-than-vibrant -- with the notable exception of the cultural district near Heinz Hall (the Symphony Hall). That's because the economic center-of-gravity has moved to the Oakland neighborhood which is where Carnegie Mellon University, the Univ. of Pittsburgh (Pitt), and about 2 dozen major hospitals are located. High-tech employment passed up the steel industry's peak numbers 15 years ago, and has been climbing since.

    And if you want your country acres, while still having easy access to the city, the hospitals, and the cultural district, that's not a problem. You can still find countryside within 20 minutes' drive of Oakland, or within 25 minutes of downtown (assuming you're not travelling at rush-hour, that is).

    I would list only two significant negatives at the moment. One is the current status of downtown. It's currently on a cusp between reviving and sinking. The cultural district's renovation and improvement is a significant bright spot; the (failed) plans to redevelop other parts of downtown are not (largely because the plans were truly stupid!). The second significant negative issue is city finances. The city government is on the verge of bankruptcy. This appears to be rooted in three major issues, listed here by my personal view of importance:[list=1][*]A century of one-party government. The City of Pittsburgh has been a Democratic party stronghold for about 130 years; the Republicans haven't been able to compete for the last century. No intended dis of Democrats in general. Rather, a total lack of competition does not foster efficient, lean, effective government.[*]Tax Base. 60% of all property within the city limits is non-taxable. Either it's city/county/state government owned, or it's Universities & Hospitals & other giant non-profits, or it's regional non-profit attractions like the Zoo, the Aviary, Museums, large parks, etc. This puts a real strain on city finances. [*]Historically, the city of Pittsburgh hasn't swallowed up its suburbs. That means that the City proper is quite small (350K people), even though the metropolitan region is rather large (2.8M people). But the city still contains the main regional assets. See the previous item for why that's a problem.
    </ol id="1">

    Now that I've fully disclosed the problems -- which are not too severe in my book -- I can rave about the advantages. Prices for housing and land are well below national averages. The local employment outlook is good and getting better. Unbelievably good cultural resources. Beyond what I mentioned in my last note, I should add that the Carnegie Museum has the world's finest collection of dinosaur bones (and they'll even have them well displayed in another 5 years or so, when they finish revamping that section of the museum), along with the world's leading biennial invitational show of new art at the Art museum. There's the Andy Warhol museum on the North Side, along with a darn good Science Center. In addition to over-all good schooling, Carnegie Mellon is home to the world's finest School of Computer Science (OK, it's a 3- or 4-way tie between MIT, Stanford, CMU, and sometimes Berkeley), and one of the nation's finest Drama schools. I'm sure I forgot to mention major-league sports teams in every sport except basketball. Did I remember to mention the low cost of living?

    There's easy access to fine outdoor activities. Hiking in the Laurel Highlands, white-water nearby (moderate on the Youghageny river, advanced on the Cheat in W. Virginia), good hunting and fishing, boating on the rivers and in a variety of lakes. Lousy skiing though -- I spent my gradeschool and Jr. High years in Salt Lake City, consider anything with less than a 100" base to be "poor to sandy," and don't even ask me about needing snow-making equipment. The grad students I know who are into climbing tell me that there are lots of good places within an hour's drive or so.

    Did I mention the excellent cultural opportunities and the low cost of living??

    Dean

    P.S. On previewing this note I see that I've rather gone on and on. Really, I don't feel like you've insulted my town. It's just that I really really like living here.

    Comment

    • ElRay
      Established Member
      • Jan 2003
      • 367
      • NoIL

      #47
      quote:Originally posted by aleuni

      We don't know what a real pure bred american is either ... You are looked down upon if you don't marry out of you nationality ... THe church I am in has over 28 countries represented ... You want to be "accepted for who you are" here is the place ... You want a melting pot come here. you want anything else keep looking.
      That's the crux of our problem -- You realy don't get places like this outside of larger urban areas.

      Ray
      "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
      --- Robert A. Heinlein

      Comment

      • ElRay
        Established Member
        • Jan 2003
        • 367
        • NoIL

        #48
        quote:Originally posted by dfsuther

        ElRay wrote:
        quote:Hopefully I'll dogge one more "You insulted my town bullet, but Pittsburg seemed to have that same past it's peak, which was during the Industrial Boom, run down, steel town, feel. Again, it's been a while, plus I was just passing through, so I didn't really have a chance to see much off the beaten path.
        No "You insulted my town" bullet here... but a bullet for mis-spelling: That's Pittsburgh-with-an-H and don't you forget it!!!
        Let me add one item to my list:
        • A locale full of tolerance for those that can't spell worth a darn. (Blew both "dodge" and "Pittsburgh" (at least I got the double T's)
        []
        quote:That's because the economic center-of-gravity has moved to the Oakland neighborhood which is where Carnegie Mellon University, the Univ. of Pittsburgh (Pitt), and about 2 dozen major hospitals are located. High-tech employment passed up the steel industry's peak numbers 15 years ago, and has been climbing since.
        That's prolly why I missed it.
        quote:P.S. On previewing this note I see that I've rather gone on and on. Really, I don't feel like you've insulted my town. It's just that I really really like living here.
        Hey, if it ain't worth defending, it ain't worth keeping.

        Question for you: What are the winters like? We actually enjoy "real" winters (Once the snow sticks, it stays snow until the spring thaws), but these Midwest winters (infrequent major snowfalls which almost immediately melt and re-freeze so the whole thing is a damp, soggy/icey mess) is making us not automatically discount winter-less (which also means we lose the best of Fall) climates.

        Ray
        "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
        --- Robert A. Heinlein

        Comment

        • ElRay
          Established Member
          • Jan 2003
          • 367
          • NoIL

          #49
          quote:Originally posted by billwmeyer

          I'm pretty happy right here in Southeast Kansas.
          I've never been down that way. It's amazing, as much as I've traveled, there's still so much I haven't seen. The last time I was anywhere close, it was KC, MO. The funny thing is, coming from the airport, you have to take I-35 towards Demoine (sp?) and not "Kansas City" (the one in Kansas). The truly odd thing is that my directions still sync'ed until the street ended two blocks before I got to the address I needed. Luckily, somebody recognized a landmark on my map (for folks coming the other way) and said, "Oh, you want Kansas City, Missouri, you're in Kansas City, Kansas.
          quote:If you are a hunter, there are deer, quail, and turkey
          Hunting, that's another thing I "miss" about upstate NY. Not that I do it, I have no need to, but I grew-up near folks that had their freezers stocked with Venison, Duck, Pheasant, Trout, free-range Chicken, organically grown vegetables, etc. (Stuff that others would pay big-bucks for), simply because if they didn't kill-it-n-grill-it, they'd have to do without. It's hard to get urban anti-hunting folks to realize that there's still places in the US like this. Also, it's good to have self-sufficient folks around.
          quote:Good luck on your search!
          Thanks for the well-wishes. This isn't going to be an easy (but it should be fun) or short search.

          Ray
          "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
          --- Robert A. Heinlein

          Comment

          • dfsuther
            Forum Newbie
            • Oct 2003
            • 57
            • Pittsburgh, PA, USA.

            #50
            ElRay wrote:
            quote:
            Question for you: What are the winters like? We actually enjoy "real" winters (Once the snow sticks, it stays snow until the spring thaws), but these Midwest winters (infrequent major snowfalls which almost immediately melt and re-freeze so the whole thing is a damp, soggy/icey mess) is making us not automatically discount winter-less (which also means we lose the best of Fall) climates.
            Our winters are somewhere in between the two you mention above. We don't get the snow-sticks 'til Spring routine. But when we do get snow, it typically sticks for a fair while before melting. In between snowfalls, the weather is relatively mild. Typical winter highs in the upper-20s to low-30s, with daytime thaw, night-time freeze*. Expect one to two weeks each winter of deep-freeze with lows way below zero and highs in the low single digits.

            The traditional midwest sorta-winter that you describe seems to me to have faster snow-melt than I'm used to seeing here.

            I agree with the other BT3K-ers on one important thing, though... Best of luck on your search!

            Dean

            * Yes, that does mean pot-hole **** arrives shortly before spring. Sigh.

            Comment

            • Bruce Cohen
              Veteran Member
              • May 2003
              • 2698
              • Nanuet, NY, USA.
              • BT3100

              #51
              Ray,

              Fianlly hae some time to really read the forum's postings.

              I live in Rockland county, NY This is a somewhat rural like surburb of NYC (35 mi North 0f Midtown). Has just about everything you are looking for, except the property tax and home costs have gone ballastic in the last ten or so years. If I were you I'd look into Orange county, that just north of us. Still close enough to get into Manhattan, but not on a commuter basis (unless you're into real long ride times). A lot more less expensive land and property costs, a pretty good school sytem and its not in the sticks where people think that Indian food is something that Sitting Bull ate,

              If you're interested, I'm pretty sure that you can get info from the NY State web site. Oh, and you're not far from good skiing and yes, the snow stays and remains white for a longer time than most people would like, but the Fall darn near rivals Vermont.

              Bruce
              "Western civilization didn't make all men equal,
              Samuel Colt did"

              Comment

              • cobob
                Established Member
                • Jan 2004
                • 252
                • Rolla, MO, USA.
                • BT3100

                #52
                Huntsville Alabama, heat & humidity aren't bad. Lots of tech, restraunts are fair to midlin. They have some culture but are close to lots of cities and stuff to do. Great family spot. Alabama has more distinct ecosystems than any other state in the nation...lots of outdoor stuff. Lots of land reasonably cheap, low racial tension, a true ethnic mixing pot. Low taxes...so far...state is financially destitute currently.

                I lived in Columbus for 4 years. It's nice but boringly white bread, a long way from anywhere and a boring drive to get there...but it was nice.

                Comment

                • ElRay
                  Established Member
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 367
                  • NoIL

                  #53
                  quote:Originally posted by Bruce Cohen

                  If I were you I'd look into Orange county, that just north of us. Still close enough to get into Manhattan, but not on a commuter basis (unless you're into real long ride times). A lot more less expensive land and property costs, a pretty good school sytem and its not in the sticks where people think that Indian food is something that Sitting Bull ate
                  LOL

                  I was watching _American_Chopper_ and saw them snowmobling. I then realized that it wasn't Orange County, CA, so I had to check-out the location. Looking at the map, it seems to be in that "just barely within commuting distance, but prices have already started to skyrocket." range, but I guess it's a bit further than that. We had basically discounted that area then. We'll have to add it back to the "Let's find an excuse to check the place out" List.

                  Ray
                  "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
                  --- Robert A. Heinlein

                  Comment

                  • bmyers
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jun 2003
                    • 1371
                    • Fishkill, NY
                    • bt 3100

                    #54
                    Thats funny you sould mention OCC. I'm from around there originally. The Hudson Valley is really nice. I plan on moving back there sometime. Family is there and all that. Property prices are a little silly in areas. School taxes are steep too. But there is just so much going on around there. I was pretty much born and raised in Fishkill. There is a lot of Dutch around there and kill is Dutch for "stream", so Fish-kill is a stream full of fish.. Kobalskill, Peekskill, Catskill etc..
                    If you can live farther north maybe you get look for work in Albany. It's not as expensive house-wise farther north.

                    Bill
                    "Why are there Braille codes on drive-up ATM machines?"

                    Comment

                    • ElRay
                      Established Member
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 367
                      • NoIL

                      #55
                      quote:Originally posted by bmyers
                      ... I was pretty much born and raised in Fishkill. There is a lot of Dutch around there and kill is Dutch for "stream", so Fish-kill is a stream full of fish
                      My dad worked in Fishkill (for IBM) for a while when we lived in Canton, NY. Never knew where the name came from.
                      quote:If you can live farther north maybe you get look for work in Albany.
                      As for my work, The main office (and our servers) is in Pasadena, CA and I work from home. So, as long as I'm not so far out that I can't get DSL or a cable modem, or I need to spend more than about two hours to get to an airport big enough for 737's, MD-80's, etc. (no little every seat is both a window and an aisle seat, pound the calculator, move luggage from the tail to the nose, pound the calculator, excuse me ma'am, how much do you weight? Oh, can you sit here instead? turboprop), I'm fine.

                      Ray
                      "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
                      --- Robert A. Heinlein

                      Comment

                      • Stan
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 966
                        • Kalispell, MT, USA.
                        • BT3100, Delta 36-717

                        #56
                        quote:Originally posted by cobob

                        Huntsville Alabama, heat & humidity aren't bad.
                        Now that would be a relative observation. Take a fella from the mountains of Northwest Montana, and plunk him down in Huntsville -- I don't think I ever stopped sweating. Spent 4 years out of 8 in the service at Redstone Arsenal, every darn time I came back to the States -- I ended up in Huntsville.
                        Don't know much about the area now though as the last time I was there other than a visit (wife's family is from Huntsvill) was about 20 years ago. From what I remember about it, wouldn't mind living there (bass fishing on the Tennessee was lots of fun) if not for the heat/humidity.
                        From the NW corner of Montana.
                        http://www.elksigndesigns.com

                        Comment

                        • ElRay
                          Established Member
                          • Jan 2003
                          • 367
                          • NoIL

                          #57
                          quote:Originally posted by Stan

                          quote:Originally posted by cobob

                          Huntsville Alabama, heat & humidity aren't bad.
                          Now that would be a relative observation. Take a fella from the mountains of Northwest Montana, and plunk him down in Huntsville -- I don't think I ever stopped sweating.
                          True, true. No IL/WI is about as humid as we'd be willing to go. NC might be tolerable, but SC (especially around Ft. Jackson (Columbia, right?)) would likely be too much. Ideal would be something on par with Upsate NY or Vermont. I should prolly dig-up some official numbers, so I'd have something less subjective.

                          Ray
                          "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
                          --- Robert A. Heinlein

                          Comment

                          • bmyers
                            Veteran Member
                            • Jun 2003
                            • 1371
                            • Fishkill, NY
                            • bt 3100

                            #58
                            Well as far as airports go.. There's Albany, Stewart Newburgh and White Planes before you get to the city. All have big plane service.
                            I dunno, but it sure sounds like to me, you're interested in upstate NY. Are you leaning that way?
                            I know I'll be back there at some point. Phoenix is getting to me..
                            (but it is summer here, not a good time to assess where you live..)

                            Bill
                            "Why are there Braille codes on drive-up ATM machines?"

                            Comment

                            • ElRay
                              Established Member
                              • Jan 2003
                              • 367
                              • NoIL

                              #59
                              quote:Originally posted by bmyers

                              I dunno, but it sure sounds like to me, you're interested in upstate NY. Are you leaning that way?
                              It's a place that I know we can get what we're looking for. I'm pretty partial to the general area, but the wife and I are both people the tend to researching things to death, if we have the luxury of taking time to make decisions. I would love to go back up to St. Lawrence County, but I feel it's a bit too remote. Plus, it's a bit far to do some of the things we like to do. Right now, Pennsylvania (close to Seneca Rocks, New River Gorge and Red River Gorge), The Hudson River Valley (close to "The Gunks"), Vermont (close to NH's White Mountains) are at the top of the list. New Hampshire and the mountain regions of New Mexico are on the short list of places to investigate before we start searching in earnest.

                              Ray

                              Ray
                              "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
                              --- Robert A. Heinlein

                              Comment

                              • JeffW
                                Veteran Member
                                • Feb 2003
                                • 1594
                                • San Antonio, Texas, USA.
                                • BT3100

                                #60
                                quote:Originally posted by Jim Boyd

                                We have all kinds of seasons in Texas. Hurrican season, mosquito season, pollen season, fire ant season, crawdad season, deer season, june bug season, love bug season, bbq season, rainey season, cook eggs on the sidewalk season, howl at the moon season (really every Saturday night). You name it and we have a season for it. Even one for them funny bees that like drilling round holes in picnic tables
                                Jim, Don't forget Humid Season (actually year round)
                                Measure twice, cut once, screw it up, start over

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