Is PEX just a way to give plumbers continuous employment?

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  • JimD
    Veteran Member
    • Feb 2003
    • 4187
    • Lexington, SC.

    Is PEX just a way to give plumbers continuous employment?

    We are about done with a major remodel that included adding a half bath and moving the master bath. The plumber I hired to do the rough plumbing (I am doing the final) wanted to use PEX. I disagreed and we settled on CPVC. I had that in the last house and in the 14 years we were there it never caused a problem. What bothers me is we are on at least the third generation of PEX now. Each time they come out with a new version it works great for 5-10 years and then starts failing. Maybe the current stuff is fine but they said that last time.

    My son and daughter in law recently bought a nice house. I inspected one or two they were looking at but not this one. It has PEX. It split a little over a week ago in two places on the hot water line. During the repair, it was clear it had split before. The house is less than 10 years old. The splits were at bends. They were under the house so the insulation got wet but maybe they get it dried before they had mold. And then wait on the next split. He is thinking of changing it out but that is a big job. The plumber that did the repair refused to use CPVC. I told my son to make sure he is never in his house again.

    I have copper, some PVC on cold water supply, and now some CPVC for both cold and hot to the newest bathrooms. Copper costs the most and takes the longest to put together but I am most comfortable with it's longevity. I am reasonably comfortable with CPVC. It is much quicker and cheaper than copper. But I am pretty determined to avoid PEX.

    Any other thoughts or experience?

    Jim
  • woodturner
    Veteran Member
    • Jun 2008
    • 2047
    • Western Pennsylvania
    • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

    #2
    Have not heard any reports of PEX failing - until now. It has been in use in Europe for decades. You mentioned it was "clear it had split before" - how could you tell? The fix would be to replace that line, which it seems would leave no evidence of the repair.

    Sounds like your split was more incorrect installation that a product failure. How tight was the bend, sounds like they may have exceeded the minimum bend radius.

    Not familiar with the "generations" of PEX you describe, my understanding is it's the same product that has been in use for 40+ years with essentially no failures.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

    Comment

    • Tom Slick
      Veteran Member
      • May 2005
      • 2913
      • Paso Robles, Calif, USA.
      • sears BT3 clone

      #3
      Around here almost all new(er) construction is PEX and has been in use for 20 years. Copper is also used quite a bit. I’ve seen zero CPVC installations. As far as I know there have been no issues with PEX.
      Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison

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      • cwsmith
        Veteran Member
        • Dec 2005
        • 2737
        • NY Southern Tier, USA.
        • BT3100-1

        #4
        Right after we bought this old house (1887) we had the kitchen remodeled. While I did the trim work, the cabinet and counter tops were done by a contractor and everything was rearranged from the original placements. Our kitchen measures just over 22 ft long by 10-1/2 wide, with the north end having about 10 ft over just a crawl space. My concern was that was the end where the sink was now going to be located. The plumber assured me that he would take proper steps to make sure we weren't going to have freezing problems with the copper that he ran.

        Well, he didn't and that very first winter we ended up with a busted out copper elbow under the sink. At the time we hadn't moved in yet and were very lucky in that the broken line must have occurred only minutes before we arrived. (I say that, because the line was the hot water feed to the kitchen sink and when we arrived it was still very hot water.

        A mess to mop up, but there was no warpage to the new cabinets. To say the least I got a second plumber to come in and fix the problem. Instead of running copper through the crawl space, he ran PEX up through the basement and over the crawl space area located it across the back of the cabinets. He told me that the PEX had some expand-ability and wasn't prone to damage if it froze. That's been about 12 or so years now and we've had no further problems. I do note that in places where there are curves, he used PEX bend supports to maintain the proper radius.

        CWS
        Think it Through Before You Do!

        Comment

        • capncarl
          Veteran Member
          • Jan 2007
          • 3564
          • Leesburg Georgia USA
          • SawStop CTS

          #5
          My house has pex in the attic. I have cold sweats every time I think about it. When we had the house built I had the plans changed to run the pex in 4” pvc drain piping under the slab to each water use point. It was all to be connected to a manifold system in the utility room, each line was to be 1 piece with no joints or connections. If I had a failure it would be a simple job to pull the failed piece out and pull in a fresh line. Hurricane Katrina changed all of that when all the plumbers, carpenters, electricians and masons packed up and headed west like the gold miners heading to California. Many months behind schedule I finally agreed to scrap my underfloor pex design and allow the plumbers to install pex their conventional way. Now if I get a leak I probably won’t know it until the ceiling falls in the floor. We have added additional insulation to the attic and especially over all of the pex piping. Pex certainly does have enough flexibility to resist bursting when it freezes, and everyone sings praise for that....... but what they won’t tell you is the fittings will not handle any freezing, they crack and blow out! The beauty of pex is being able to fun from the source to the device with a single length of tubing, but every house I’ve inspected has the tubing run like it was pvc pipe, with ells and “t” s everywhere. In my opinion pex installed this way is no better that using cheap pvc! If I ever have the chance to build another house I won’t get hoodwinkled into installing pex this way again.

          Comment

          • JimD
            Veteran Member
            • Feb 2003
            • 4187
            • Lexington, SC.

            #6
            You guys with PEX may want to review the "Pex Universe" website. Their opinion is it is OK with the right materials correctly installed. I hope they are right. I guess my son's pipe is "Nibco", there is a class action lawsuit going on that he plans to get in on. According to that website, the other issues are fittings or installation. It also says PEX is not freeze proof. My house is on a crawl space with copper pipe and it doesn't get terribly cold here, but occasionally well below freezing, even less frequently we go below zero. No frozen pipes yet but the crawl space is uninsulated which will change.

            My son is on city water so the quality should be OK but his water pressure is too high, he plans to change that. Mine is regulated to less than 80psi.

            I read the stuff about PEX in Europe but I would have to know the conditions are equivalent to put much confidence in that. I've also heard of water pressure so low houses need accumulation tanks.

            I hope it works.

            My son's hot water tank is above his FROG (finished room over the garage). There is an access panel in the garage to the are it comes down to enter the crawl space to go to the fixtures. There is a PEX patch where it comes down. The access panel was apparently created to give the plumber access to fix a previous leak.

            Comment

            • woodturner
              Veteran Member
              • Jun 2008
              • 2047
              • Western Pennsylvania
              • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

              #7
              Originally posted by JimD
              You guys with PEX may want to review the "Pex Universe" website. Their opinion is it is OK with the right materials correctly installed.
              Thanks for noting that site, was not familiar with it. They says PEX is much less trouble-prone than copper and other materials, which makes sense.

              I guess my son's pipe is "Nibco", there is a class action lawsuit going on that he plans to get in on.
              Do you have any info on the Nibco class action lawsuit? All I could find was an attorney trolling for enough people to form a class so he could file a class action complaint.

              --------------------------------------------------
              Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

              Comment

              • capncarl
                Veteran Member
                • Jan 2007
                • 3564
                • Leesburg Georgia USA
                • SawStop CTS

                #8
                I can only imagine how much repair work had to be done to piping and drywall resulting from freeze induced burst piping in forclosure homes setting vacant. Not so much in the south where I live but northern cold climates where the banks evicted the owners, turned off the utilities and waited for the market to recover so they could harvest someone else’s life savings.

                Comment

                • woodturner
                  Veteran Member
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 2047
                  • Western Pennsylvania
                  • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                  #9
                  Originally posted by capncarl
                  I can only imagine how much repair work had to be done to piping and drywall resulting from freeze induced burst piping in forclosure homes setting vacant. Not so much in the south where I live but northern cold climates where the banks evicted the owners, turned off the utilities and waited for the market to recover so they could harvest someone else’s life savings.
                  The banks don't leave foreclosed properties unattended - they keep the utilities on to prevent freeze damage, do minimal repairs if required, such as fixing the furnace to maintain heat in a cold climate, and have people who check on all the properties every week or two. They are legally required to maintain and preserve the properties to fulfill their fiduciary responsibilities.

                  Ironically the foreclosure wave led to people starting many companies to perform these foreclosure home maintenance procedures.
                  --------------------------------------------------
                  Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                  Comment

                  • capncarl
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 3564
                    • Leesburg Georgia USA
                    • SawStop CTS

                    #10
                    Woodturner.... you must have a better class of banks than in my area! My statement is braised on my observation because I can point out 3 houses within walking distance from my house that the only maintanenance the banks gave them was a monthly mowing. That was only because code enforcement made them do that. They are still vacant to this day because no one can live in them because of mold and stench. Several have had a few renters but they quickly found better accommodations. I suspect they were sold to flippers who don’t have the wherewithal to totally gut the house and start over from a empty shell.
                    capncarl

                    Comment

                    • woodturner
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jun 2008
                      • 2047
                      • Western Pennsylvania
                      • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                      #11
                      Originally posted by capncarl
                      Woodturner.... you must have a better class of banks than in my area!
                      No, all banks throughout the US do it this way, it's a legal requirement. You may not be aware that they are monitoring those properties, but they almost certainly are. Of course, there could be some little bank somewhere that is breaking federal law, but certainly the major banks are compliant.

                      --------------------------------------------------
                      Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                      Comment

                      • JimD
                        Veteran Member
                        • Feb 2003
                        • 4187
                        • Lexington, SC.

                        #12
                        My son is in the process of selling his house which he bought about 8 years ago as a bank foreclosure. They might have kept the heat on but the bank did basically nothing to help it sell. There were literally holes in the wall and it was very dirty. The previous tenant had obviously torn things off the wall and they just left it that way. The deck was so bad he couldn't get a loan so we had to have them do some work there. He's put quite a bit of effort and some money into it and it looks like he will make a little.

                        The other really dumb thing the bank did in his case, which I presume is not unusual, is refuse to "deal" except during "business hours". And very slowly - like days to respond. That just is not how houses are sold. They didn't respond like a normal seller either. Very frustrating.

                        The combination of these things helps explain how they loose so much on foreclosures. I don't understand why they don't set somebody up to manage the properties, however. They could do the cosmetic things any seller would and have somebody available to make a "deal" and make at least 20% more on each house.

                        Comment

                        • woodturner
                          Veteran Member
                          • Jun 2008
                          • 2047
                          • Western Pennsylvania
                          • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                          #13
                          Originally posted by JimD
                          They might have kept the heat on but the bank did basically nothing to help it sell.
                          Their only interest to comply with the law and get what they are owed, so they have to make reasonable effort to prevent further damage but usually don't make repairs. If it is a high end home that needs minor repairs, they might.

                          The other really dumb thing the bank did in his case, which I presume is not unusual, is refuse to "deal" except during "business hours". And very slowly - like days to respond. That just is not how houses are sold. They didn't respond like a normal seller either. Very frustrating.
                          Yes, they do deal slowly on foreclosures, most plan on four to six months to close. It's all the regulatory requirements and multiple agencies and organizations that have to approve each offer and the sale that slow down the process. Just the legal requirements.

                          The combination of these things helps explain how they loose so much on foreclosures. I don't understand why they don't set somebody up to manage the properties, however. They could do the cosmetic things any seller would and have somebody available to make a "deal" and make at least 20% more on each house.
                          They usually do not lose on foreclosures. The owner may, since in most states they remain liable for the mortgage if the foreclosure doesn't cover the bank's loan and expenses, but the foreclosed properties are usually break even for the bank, which is all they want.

                          --------------------------------------------------
                          Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                          Comment

                          • cwsmith
                            Veteran Member
                            • Dec 2005
                            • 2737
                            • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                            • BT3100-1

                            #14
                            I can only speak about the house next to me, here in Binghamton. I live on the west side, on a street know for many of it's turn-of-the-century mansions. The street itself is a double wide street with large double-wide sidewalks. The house next to mine was built and occupied by the family that founded and owned the once dominant dairy process company here). About eighteen years ago that house went on the market and sold to a terrible family from Long Island, who practically destroyed the home during their four years of no-mortgage payments. The bank was HSBC whose main offices are in California. There are no local offices and I think even the office in Buffalo, NY was closed during this foreclosure process which took place about five years ago now.

                            So, after the people were finally evicted, they destroyed the house on exit, removing doors, smashing windows, every single electric outlet at been taken a hammer to. Wall smashed, obscenities marked and overall just a total mess. NO prosecutions and the bank decided it wasn't worth any further investment on their part. So, after the people left, the bank sent in a clean-out crew and it took them several day to clean the house up (there were several trailers of debris removed). So after all of that, the house was put up for bid and I saw no heat coming from the house. The water system had been drained, the electricity shut off and that was about it. They did hire a local guy to mow and they did that once a month. I think they had a contract, because they come over and run the lawn mower and then leave. I remember one year they did that with a light snow on the ground... funny and I think I still have the rough picture I snapped.

                            But beyond that, the bank had no interest whatsoever. All responsibility was contracted with a local realtor who frankly was fed up with the whole situation as they had dealt on behalf of the bank for those four years of trying to evict the occupants. Finally when it did sell, it went for about $50K. It had to be completely rewired, new heating system put in, all new windows and probably about 80% of the plumbing. Not to mention re-plastering and painting inside and out; floor and stair repairs, etc. Today the house is a rental... and I'm not particularly happy with the neighbors.

                            Point is that while there may well be laws on the books to maintain a house after a foreclosure, local governments often do not have the means to monitor and prosecute. Prosecution alone takes months, if not years and today, the holding bank may not even be in the same state. Worse perhaps is that many mortgages today are not held by official banks, but by loan companies and others.

                            CWS
                            Think it Through Before You Do!

                            Comment

                            • woodturner
                              Veteran Member
                              • Jun 2008
                              • 2047
                              • Western Pennsylvania
                              • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                              #15
                              Originally posted by cwsmith
                              But beyond that, the bank had no interest whatsoever.
                              Absolutely, their only interest is in recovering what they can and meeting legal requirements to "maintain" the property. What you note is fairly typical, they maintain the property but make no improvements.

                              Sounds like someone got a pretty good deal on that house, and still got a good value after the work.

                              --------------------------------------------------
                              Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

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