All George Zimmerman Threads

[cwsmith]

Short of a weapon, what TM was carrying is totally irrelavant... unless of course it could have been shown that he too had pulled a weapon. Also completely irrelavent is whether the kid used drugs, had any drugs in his past, had any relationship with drugs or drug dealers... and whether or not he ever had questionable valueables on him at some time in the past.

What is relavent is that GZ called in to the police a suspicious character. That GZ felt it necessary to arm himself, and that inspite of the police dispatch telling him to NOT pursue, he ignored it and went after TM.

Now someone said that the dispatcher was not a police officer, as if that should have made a difference. First off, the dispatcher was an employee of the police and in every instance that I know of, has the training and the responsibility to advise anyone who calls in. They speak with the authority of the police dept. SO, GZ did ignore the police warning and took it upon himself to take his weapon and follow TM to the point of confrontation and the eventual death of TM. That in any fair court system would place the results squarely on the shoulders of GZ. Perhaps not murder, but manslaughter would be likely I believe.

Look, here in NY if I discover someone robbing my house, I have a right to protect my family... IF I FEEL THREATENED! But, if upon hearing me coming down the stairs, the felon flees... I have no right whatsoever in shooting the thief. And, if I call the police and they tell me to stay put, and instead I pursue the thief... I still do not have a right to fire at him. And if the thief turns on me, and attacks me and I then kill him in self-defence, then and only then might the shooting be justified. BUT, I'm sure there would be a great deal to be made of whether or not I prompted the fight simply by my pursuit. IN all likelyhood I would be subject to manslaughter based on the fact that the death need never to have happened if I had not brought the incident upon myself in defiance of the police advisement and the willful pursuit with intent to carry out my armed apprehension of the thief.

While the intent of GZ was not necessarily murder, his motivation, and action resulted in the death of TM. TM's drug addiction and past actions have not been proven to be in effect on that night. There was no proof that he was armed, no proof that he had robbed anyone and I have not read where anyone, on that night or recent nights had been robbed in that immediate area.

Regarding the "concrete" issue. I must have missed that somewhere! The eyewitness reported that the fight took place on the grass and not on the sidewalk. Unless it was reported otherwise, the issue of GZ having his head slammed against "concrete" is conjecture and contrary to the initial eyewitness who stated that they were tussleing on the grass, and it's contrary to the initial reports of grass stain and dampness on GZ's jacket. So, unless there was follow-up proof of the sidewalk being used to bash in GZ's head, the defense had no right whatsoever to introduce that hunk of concrete into the trial. It has been stated by the jury (today) that such "evidence" was a swaying factor.

Certainly, it's a good argument that TM should have walked away and should not have attacked GZ. BUT, what do we really know about what provoked this action. Did GZ say something, use a slur as he had with the initial call in to the police, or perhaps something worse? We don't know. Did TM simply, and irrationally, turn and attack the person who was questioning him and following him. We don't know! Stupid move for sure, but then youth doesn't always act wisely... but if GZ had followed the police advice and not followed and provoked this altercation, the death would NOT have occurred... and we do know that.

I have other questions too, like why did GZ feel it necessary to carry a weapon into this situation? Did this gated community have a rash of burglaries and muggings? Is it a policy of volunteer watch people to be armed and was it the agreed policy of this particular group of volunteers to be armed. What was the normal police procedure regarding volunteer watchmen? We've got all kinds of neighborhood watch organizations here as well as uniformed auxiliary police and sheriff.... but none of them are supposed to be carrying weapons. There's simply too many wanna-be's who would endanger the public if they were so empowered

CWS

[Black wallnut]

Rule 404 is an Evidence Rule that all states have since it is a Federal rule see this. I may be wrong and acceptable evidence changes over time as cases are tried and lawyers try to stretch the boundaries to benefit their clients. My knowledge of rules of evidence come from what I learned in my Reserve Police Academy 18 or so years ago. Subjects such as this are so critically important to LEA that it is not likely that I learned it wrong as one minor mistake jeopardizes the entire case. Evidence rules are uniform to reduce federal appeals. However I do not know for sure how Florida runs their courts, (other comment withheld due to political ban)

Most of the time research on the readers part is called for as in this case. Otherwise posts may become wordy.

[woodturner]

If the arresting officer is aware of a perp's prior arrests, or upon processing makes discovery, it can impact and in some cases elevate the charges

If a perp is on parole and arrested for a crime it can be given higher charges.

Three-strikes laws are statutes enacted by state governments in the United States which mandate state courts to impose harsher sentences on habitual offenders who are convicted of three or more serious criminal offenses. In most jurisdictions, only crimes at the felony level qualify as serious offenses.

It seems the confusion is between the role of the LEO and DA. As BW said, in general a LEO cannot arrest someone based on their prior record. For example, a LEO could not arrest a person who served time for robbery for some other robbery without probable cause that is unrelated to the prior robbery. Some municipalities do make specific exceptions for specific offenses, hower.

As you note, though, prior offenses can be considered by the DA once probable cause is established and the person is arrested. A LEO arrests a person at the direction of the DA or based on suspicion of a crime, but it is the DA that charges the person with the crime.

In addition, often prior convictions are inadmissable in court, but the judge can and, in some cases, must consider prior convictions when sentencing. However, that is after the person has been convicted of the current crime, and affects only their sentencing. The "three strikes" laws you referenced are an example of this.

Disclaimer: This is my best understanding, but I do not practice criminal law and this is not legal advice.

[annunaki]

Why would Florida be concerned with Massachusetts Evidence Laws any more than they would be concerned with Nevada's Prostitution Law or Colorado's Marijuana Law ?

[cabinetman]

Interesting quote from Massachusetts however, how is that relevant to the case in Florida?

I have no idea...Black wallnut posted it.

.

[dbhost]

It's from the Massachusetts Guide To Evidence. Scroll down to Article IV. Relavency And Its Limits, 404. Character Evidence Not Admissible To Prove Conduct; Exceptions; Other Crimes.
http://www.mass.gov/courts/sjc/guide-to-evidence/

I don't know if this would apply in Florida.

.

Interesting quote from Massachusetts however, how is that relevant to the case in Florida? It would be interesting to see if Fla has anything similar.

[cabinetman]

It is impossible to respond to "Section 404. " when no information is given as to from whence it is quoted re: What Table Game, What Sport, What Company Policy Manual, What State, What Country Etc. The only
vague link at the bottom is " Routine Practice of Business; Individual Habit." which suggests to me some type of Business Law most likely Civil Law, which is an entirely different practice than Criminal Law. If that is the case then Comparing Apples to Oranges just doesn't work. Elaboration on your source for "Section 404" is needed. Simply put- Section 404 OF WHAT ???

It's from the Massachusetts Guide To Evidence. Scroll down to Article IV. Relavency And Its Limits, 404. Character Evidence Not Admissible To Prove Conduct; Exceptions; Other Crimes.
http://www.mass.gov/courts/sjc/guide-to-evidence/

I don't know if this would apply in Florida.

.

[annunaki]

It is impossible to respond to "Section 404. " when no information is given as to from whence it is quoted re: What Table Game, What Sport, What Company Policy Manual, What State, What Country Etc. The only
vague link at the bottom is " Routine Practice of Business; Individual Habit." which suggests to me some type of Business Law most likely Civil Law, which is an entirely different practice than Criminal Law. If that is the case then Comparing Apples to Oranges just doesn't work. Elaboration on your source for "Section 404" is needed. Simply put- Section 404 OF WHAT ???

[Black wallnut]

"LEA cannot base an arrest for a current crime on a perps past record"

If the arresting officer is aware of a perp's prior arrests, or upon processing makes discovery, it can impact and in some cases elevate the charges

If a perp is on parole and arrested for a crime it can be given higher charges.

Three-strikes laws are statutes enacted by state governments in the United States which mandate state courts to impose harsher sentences on habitual offenders who are convicted of three or more serious criminal offenses. In most jurisdictions, only crimes at the felony level qualify as serious offenses.

Organized Crime "RICO Laws"
search
Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, commonly referred to as the RICO Act or simply RICO, is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an "ongoing criminal organization".

Clinton Perjury was based on an attempt for prosecutors to obtain information (Lewinsky) in a law suit brought by Paula Jones. The information sought included PAST&POST SIMILAR BEHAVIOR, to demonstrate "an on going pattern of behavior"

Twenty-four states have some form of habitual offender law

Perhaps you know something I don't. Link to Rule 404

[annunaki]

"LEA cannot base an arrest for a current crime on a perps past record"

If the arresting officer is aware of a perp's prior arrests, or upon processing makes discovery, it can impact and in some cases elevate the charges

If a perp is on parole and arrested for a crime it can be given higher charges.

Three-strikes laws are statutes enacted by state governments in the United States which mandate state courts to impose harsher sentences on habitual offenders who are convicted of three or more serious criminal offenses. In most jurisdictions, only crimes at the felony level qualify as serious offenses.

Organized Crime "RICO Laws"
search
Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, commonly referred to as the RICO Act or simply RICO, is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an "ongoing criminal organization".

Clinton Perjury was based on an attempt for prosecutors to obtain information (Lewinsky) in a law suit brought by Paula Jones. The information sought included PAST&POST SIMILAR BEHAVIOR, to demonstrate "an on going pattern of behavior"

Twenty-four states have some form of habitual offender law

[Black wallnut]

Likely the reason Trayvon's past was excluded is because GZ did not know it at the time of the "crime" thus it was not evidence. In the same way LEA cannot base an arrest for a current crime on a perps past record. They must base it solely on probable cause that they can articulate.

[annunaki]

NAACP admits: Trayvon's past 'shaky'

NAACP admits: Trayvon's past 'shaky'
You won't believe stunning comments on Zimmerman case
http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/naacp-spo...ns-past-shaky/

"...Twitter, Facebook, and toxicology tests have established Trayvon’s long and enthusiastic acquaintance with marijuana and codeine. Says Jack Cashill over at American Thinker:

Trayvon, in fact, had become a devotee of the druggy concoction known as “Lean,” also known in southern hip-hop culture as “Sizzurp” and “Purple Drank.” Lean consists of three basic ingredients – codeine, a soft drink, and candy. If his Facebook postings are to be believed, Trayvon had been using Lean since at least June 2011.

On June 27, 2011, Trayvon asks a friend online, “unow a connect for codien?” He tells the friend that “robitussin nd soda” could make “some fire a** lean.” He says, “I had it before” and that he wants “to make some more.” On the night of February 26, if there was some Robitussin at home, Trayvon had just bought some mixings for one “fire a** lean” cocktail.

Mixing codeine and fruit juice is a popular topic with rap stars, including one of the biggest of all, Li’l Wayne.

The Daily Mail over in London did a wrap up story about how Trayvon was suspended from school three times for fighting, drug abuse, and vandalism."


"...The Miami Herald broke this story after finding out about it almost by accident.

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f***.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

Trayvon was shot while on suspension from high school."

[annunaki]

It wasn't just Skittles Trayvon was carrying

It wasn't just Skittles Trayvon was carrying

http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/it-wasnt-...-was-carrying/

".......Among its reports, Trayvon Martin’s drug use, explaining how the Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail drink he carried that night are ingredients that, when mixed with dextromethorphan (DXM) cough syrup, create “Lean”, a concocted high which can cause psychosis and aggression over the longer term. According to the autopsy report, Martin’s liver showed damage consistent with DXM abuse."

[JimD]

I think that the focus on the gun is somewhat mis-placed. What if GZ had simply used his hands to address TM and TM had died? He is older and heavier and there would have been calls for him to be charged. There was a fight and somebody died. We know that. Who said what to who and who did or did not have good skills in defusing the situation we can only guess about.

Jim

[leehljp]

One of the things they teach a real cop is how to avoid conflict (and how to handle it if it comes). Vigalantes don't really do that.

I don't claim to be perfect - but I think prudence is better than paranoia. Temprence is usually more effective than testosterone.

Now - getting back to woodworking ----

My daughter is in social work and that was her major. She was an investigator (now supervisor) for child protective services and this is one thing she does well. After a burnout early-on in another state, she worked as assistant manager for a hotel chain. She was always getting compliments on how she handled troubling customers.

Even now, a few of the police of her city report how well she handles potential threats. ( I have to ask, is this MY daughter?, 'Cause I don't hear that in our "family" discussions ) My daughter has an ability to diffuse a situation, be confrontational without being offensive and taking control while making people relax. It helps that the police is usually there, but they usually let her do the talking.

What you said succinctly is pure wisdom!