Let's be Men again....

[leehljp]

As a college professor, I do find it disturbing that students enter college without the ability to think, in many cases to do fairly simple math, and no sense of appropriate conduct. Freshman are really mean to each other, and it is becoming culturally acceptable to be mean to others, make inappropriate comments to women, etc. One of the major tasks for our freshman engineering seminar is to teach the students how to behave professionally. It's no wonder graduating engineers can't solve problems or do research - they enter college with such a social deficit that it's not possible to teach them to survive in business and be expert engineers.

A college professor (psychology) friend told me a few weeks ago - similar comments that you made. He said that young men, overall are not maturing as fast as back as a generation ago, and the women are noticing this. I don't know where he got his informaton from but he said that an interesting statistic from "Duck Dynasty" was that the largest demographics of viewers were young women. Young women are looking for more "manly" men.

The professor also said that what a young man considers "maturity of being a man" was to be a father. Not the sex act but holding that baby. Holding or having a job, no; knowing how to take care of the baby, no; just being a father.

I don't know if or how much these observations and stats were "regional", or US demographics. The professor has a heart for his students, is highly regarded by his students, and has a very high request rate to be addded to resumes. This man leads a "mentoring" group regularly and I am one of 6 men and women that he invites on a rotating basis to participate with the group of young students in the mentoring class.


As to engineering - When I was in Japan, one of the guys on our team had and engineering degree (mechanical). That fellow taught us more about "team work" than a dozen seminars on the subject! He said that engineers usually are taught to work in teams to accomplish the task with a higher degree of accuracy. Since then, when I meet a person with an engineering background, I notice that ability - to work with a group.

[cwsmith]

All very interesting posts.

"Shop" was a major interest for me and a good share of "the guys" when I was high school (1958-1962)... that of course was in an ancient time. I was disappointed to see that there was no shop when my son when to high school in the late 80's. He had a one-semester course in the last year of "middle school" (9th grade). On visiting the high school on several occasions, I noticed their "shop" was dismally abandoned. On asking about this, I was told that those student who might be interested were mostly in BOCES, our regions "vocational" school... which is considered the alternative for students who don't scholastically do well or have a reputation for misbehaviour. I found this to be quite disturbing.

I took one year of "general" shop, two years of "metal" shop and a year of "advanced wood" shop... the latter in my senior year. For the most part the metal shop was self-learning, as the teacher was very poor, with only a couple of classes on safety and for the rest of the year we were on our own, being graded only on any projects that we might or might not wish to entertain.

The wood shop was totally different though. In that shop, Mr. Weaver did NOT allow personal projects. His belief was that "projects should be products", and to that end he presented a handful of ideas from which the class majority choose. Our first semester project was to build a "desk". We started off with a tour of the local furniture plant; then my drafting class did the design (veneer ply, turned legs, no metal hardware as criteria). In that first semester, we manufactured about 150 of these, marketing them through the student body. It was a very successful and great learning experience.

In our second semester, we visited "National Homes" which was about 80 miles away. They made "ready-cut" homes. From there, we took a two-car garage design that the previous class had, and altered it to make a small house, complete with kitchen and bath. We fabricated everything and in mid-June built it on a hill about two miles away. It was used by the Military Affiliated Radio Service, of which our school superintindent was a regional director. (After highschool I spent a lot of Friday nights up there helping to pass "traffic" via Amateur Radio.)

So, that one year of wood shop was probably the greatest high-school learning experience I had. It was terrific, and I've always been left with what a great thing such learning experience could be for everyone. Mr. Weaver went on to the SUNY system where he was to teach future shop teachers. I had the honor of speaking to one of his classes a decade later.

CWS

[cwsmith]

This "being a man" concerns me a great deal. I read such terrible things in the paper or hear them on the News and am left questioning what has happened to us men.

We seem to make "heroes" out of such poor behaviour anymore. Kids emulating poor-sportsmanship and the thought that "winning" is more important than either playing well or playing fair. It seems to be that "winning" is all that matters and in whatever sport one may watch, highly aggresive and even abusive behaviour seems to be rewarded. Whether it's targeting opposing players on the football field or bumping an opponent on the Nascar track, abusive aggresion is example we set for our kids.

We see our entertainment idols getting away with everything, in thier drug abuse, shoplifting, driving, and just plain everyday living. And it all gets populerized in the news and on television. Likewise, we are awash in video games of violence and even our politicians don't seem to get through a week without demonizing their opposition.

And all that gets absorbed and then acted out by our young!

Then we see the latest headlines about abuse against our female members of the military, and it just makes me sick! Where is the honor, the discipline, and the pride gone to? This isn't just a matter of some basic enlistee cutting loose, it's a matter of failure at every echlon of authority both within the ranks and within the officer corps! At no level of command, whether it be at the squad level or at central command, should this kind of thing be tolerated or acceptable. I get the impression, especially at the lower levels of organization, that we are without command or leadership. I can't think of any situation, right down to the "Private" where someone is without command oversight.

But here we are! Being a Man, is not about guns, women, fast cars, or even muscles. It's about being responsible, being able to provide, and being honorable and respectful to one's self and one's family and friends. It's not about protecting your kid from the law, but it is about teaching and ensuring that your kid is respectfully lawful.

CWS

[cabinetman]

As to engineering - When I was in Japan, one of the guys on our team had and engineering degree (mechanical). That fellow taught us more about "team work" than a dozen seminars on the subject! He said that engineers usually are taught to work in teams to accomplish the task with a higher degree of accuracy. Since then, when I meet a person with an engineering background, I notice that ability - to work with a group.

How does that saying go?....There is no "I" in team.

.

[cabinetman]

Found this video today, (Tok&Stok is a Brazilian Company) Anyways....lately I have been thinking on how nowadays kids don't have the opportunity to learn a craft from young age, in the past one could become an apprentice of a local master craftsman, after school and after chores were done.
I don't know if is laws making that kind of thing difficult or parents trying to provide for everything thinking that the young ones should not need to work.
But...
How can work ethics be taught ? Is it work ethics a thing of the past?

A more specific answer might be the guidance the child gets from a very young age. It may be what he/she is exposed to that may stimulate a desire. Parental guidance, or lack of it may account for the wayward assimilation of the child's environment.

It seems in today's times more parents are working and spending less time with their children. The kids have TV and computers, by which they keep occupied. I ask myself how would we get by without computers now that our lives have been saturated with them.

I remember as a child, I had a full spectrum of "things to do" that started off with with chores. After school, and after chores, there was homework. No computers. We learned life's lessons around the house by doing repairs, and performing maintenance. It was also a time that discipline was taught in the home...at least in my home. Children didn't call police if they got smacked. I doubt that parents went to jail for spanking their kid.

I'm not one to believe children should learn discipline in school. That job belongs to the parent(s). If it isn't practiced early enough, it becomes too late.

.

[BobSch]

...Mr Shropshire focused more on the method to solve a problem, than the final answer. After 46 years, I don't remember anything about the math but I know how to think through a problem or new task that I am not sure how to complete.

<rant on>
My cynical self thinks our leaders don't want a populace that can think for itself. After all, if everyone was capable of critical thought we wouldn't be as likely to swallow whole the (expletive deleted) that politicians and companies try to shove down our throats.
<rant off>

[Pappy]

But here we are! Being a Man, is not about guns, women, fast cars, or even muscles. It's about being responsible, being able to provide, and being honorable and respectful to one's self and one's family and friends. It's not about protecting your kid from the law, but it is about teaching and ensuring that your kid is respectfully lawful.

CWS

Boys are not taught the basics of gentlemanly behavior or chivalry as many of the older generation was. I was not expected to stand at the house when my mother or sister got up, but I had better when we were in public. Doors were held open for women and girls, you walked down street side between them and the curb.

A lot of women worked outside the home when I was growing up, but they were still respected and treated as ladies by the men.

I remember as a child, I had a full spectrum of "things to do" that started off with with chores. After school, and after chores, there was homework. No computers. We learned life's lessons around the house by doing repairs, and performing maintenance. It was also a time that discipline was taught in the home...at least in my home. Children didn't call police if they got smacked. I doubt that parents went to jail for spanking their kid.

I'm not one to believe children should learn discipline in school. That job belongs to the parent(s). If it isn't practiced early enough, it becomes too late.

.

Discipline in a lot of homes seems to be a lost function and has been for many years to a many parents. I spent a number of years working with Scouts as my boys grew up in the 80's. I often felt that a majority of the boys parents used us as a babysitting service and signed them up just for a way to get them out of the house for a couple of hours a week and on the occasional weekend when camping. It would have been easier to teach Swahili than to teach a concept of discipline to those boys.

[durango dude]

Read Garrison Keillor's Book of Guys

Funny thing is - Keillor is a mid-western liberal ------- but even he knows that there's something missing for guys in modern times.

To be clear, I don't think the wood shop vanished due to feminism.
(shop simply isn't essential, now that we can have almost anything made in China for cheap).

However, I think the demise of shop, along with a few other developments
(social emphasis on inclusion and engagement), has really reduced the relevancy of guys in life.

Getting back to woodworking ---

I'm making a Morris Chair (a really tough project for me) ---- and dozens of people just stare at me as if to wonder "why would you want to make something?"

Even in the field of art ---- the new art fad is "installation art" - which is designed around social concepts - rather than great art, itself. Art is evaluated on how people respond to it (thank you Andy Warhol) - rather than whether or not it's excellent (Stickley).

[cwsmith]

Doors were held open for women and girls, you walked down street side between them and the curb.

Pappy,

Funny you should mention the above. IT is something that I have always done and frankly can't remember how early in age that started. I don't remember any lesson, so perhaps my parents just set examples for me at a very early age.

I am however left with wondering if that bit of manners even exists in the minds of more than a handful of men today. I certainly never see it, even with men of my own age. Yet, I am always there to open the door for my wife, and for any woman that I may be in the company of. It's like standing aside to let another person, especially a woman pass through a doorway, or saying thankyou when someone does the same for you. Likewise walking on the protective side of a woman, be it on the sidewalk or in a crowd. Many people today don't even say "Thankyou" or have no idea of the mannered response, "You're Welcome!"... I wince when someone responds with "No Problem"... What? Should it have been a problem for a person to exercise their manners?

The other thing of course is simple work, my wife has her duties within the house, and I help out where I can; but, I would never let my wife take out the garbage, mow the lawn, or things like that. I just would find it embarrassing as a gentleman to let her do what I see as a man's work.

HAT's are a big thing with me, in that I was always told that you never wear a hat inside of a building, and you remove your hat in the presense of a lady especially. Yet we go into a store or restaurant and you see men sitting there eating in the presense of their wives or girlfriends and they're wearing their darned baseball caps!

I only wear a cap when it's raining or I'm out in the sun for a long time; but even when I dash through the rain, the minute I move through the doorway, my cap comes off and I hold it in my left hand (not sure if that's in case I need to salute anyone or go for my weapon [just joking of course]). I guess we've just lost certain traditional "gentlemanly" manners.

OR, perhaps I'm just clinging to ancient Victorian manners.

CWS

[Thom2]

Amen brother!!!

How can work ethics be taught, parenting.

Could not agree MORE!!!!!