Its getting ridiculous

[greenacres2]

The smaller vehicles are 6 qts IIRC - still helps out considering how the dino oil pricing is getting so high.

I use the same as you do, Valvoline syn for the minivan with pureone's, MB1 in the car. I did notice on the minivan's first extended oil change, the filter was slightly deformed - hence the change of filters more frequently than the oil. I think its because the filter media is tiny in comparison to other v6 engines and the surface area becomes clogged sooner than an extended interval would allow.

My C-230 (2.3 litre 4 cylinder) Kompressor takes 7.5 quarts on the button. Mobil 1, 0w40 year round. What i can see inside the valve covers at 140,000 miles is extremely clean. Now the transmission--the 722.6--is a unique fluid that is somewhat proprietary. When i did my filter at 100,000 miles i was able to source 3 cases of the German-sold Shell version of the fluid. Used my 7 or 8 liters, kept a few and sold 2 cases to cover my cost of my case, the filter, gasket, connector. It took nearly a month to find the fluid, but Tommy would have been proud of the deal i put together!!

By the way, the Dodge Sprinter uses the same tranny and fluid--Mopar version is the same price for the juice, but the filter/gasket/electrical connector (prone to an o-ring failure at 7-10 years that can allow fluid to migrate to the control module--$10 preventive cure "while you're in there") and several other things i needed were half the money for the exact same part.

earl

[tommyt654]

Yup,mornin

[Cochese]

That Jeep must have had some loose tolerances!!

The 4.0 has always been a beast (I meant AMC, I was watching Top Gear's Reliant Robin test last night).

We ran 3-4 engine flushes and luckily the pickup didn't clog. Two hours later it was humming again. Nastiest head I've ever seen.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[tommyt654]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bIn_ZgHJaE , , Sorry Chris couldn't resist, funny as heck to watch tho

[woodturner]

Guess my point was lost in ya'lls conversations about oil changes with reg vs synthetic oil, the point was the current price gouging by the oil companys and distributors of oil based products in this country, its not about what you pay for your oil change or even if you do, if its yourself or you have someone else do it. The fact its become recently overpriced was my point, even the cheapest of brands at wallyworld and others have recently exceeded $3.00 a qt.

My question is why you believe it is "price gouging"? Oil is a commodity product, and there is a certain amount of processing to reduce crude to engine oil. That processing has a cost, and the oil companies are entitled to make a reasonable profit.

We like to complain about oil and gas prices in this country largely because we have come to accept subsidized pricing as the norm. We complain about $4/gallon gas prices while most of Europe would be thrilled if gas prices dropped to $8/gallon.

I agree priced are higher than I would prefer to pay, but I'm not seeing evidence of "price gouging", and I don't agree that raising prices on a retail product as the cost of raw materials increases is unexpected or unfair.

[woodturner]

This is why Magnuson-Moss was enacted - to give the consumer some protection.

I agree, if the auto makers were not required by M-M to accept DIY records, they probably would not.

Amsoil (disclaimer - I have no love for them for fluids) is of the opinion (as am I, their legal department and several others) that this applies to service intervals as well.

Slick-50 and other "snake oils" have also made similar claims at times, but I'm not aware of any cases where they were successful in convincing a court or automaker of this viewpoint.

The intended purpose of a regular service interval is to maintain working order and prevent premature wear. If the extended service intervals still do these things, then there is no damage done, literally and figuratively.

I agree, but the problem is how can you prove that the extended interval did not cause damage? The secondary problem is that many or most auto warranties require compliance with the manufacturer's OCI to keep the warranty in force - it's stated as a term of the warranty.

The big stipulation in Magnuson-Moss is that the OEM must provide definitive proof a part or service was the cause of failure.

I don't find that in the M-M act, and note that most auto warranties are "limited" warranties, which means they don't have to comply with the act. Here are a few links for those who want to read further:
http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm
http://www.free-lemon-law-guide.com/...rranty-act.php
http://www.business.ftc.gov/document...l-warranty-law

The FTC link shows that the warrantor can require the consumer to perform specific services (e.g. OCI) to maintain coverage on a limited warranty:

"1. You do not require consumers to perform any duty as a precondition for receiving service, except notifying you that service is needed, unless you can demonstrate that the duty is reasonable.

If any of these statements is not true, then your warranty is "limited".

[woodturner]

Found out that the Pennsyvania crude used to make Penzoil is the same stuff that asphalt is made from.

Asphalt is made from crude oil - any crude oil. While Pennsylvania crude is one of the highest grades of crude and does contain more parafin, this is all refined out in the process of making engine oil. Brand of oil simply does not matter. Here is a link that explains crude.

Looking at filters, I found that Fram was one of the worst on the market and switched to Puroltor Pure One filters.

There are several informal, non-scientific, anecdotal "tests" of oil filters that can be found on the web. Several of these claim that Fram filters are inferior because they use fiberboard for the end caps. The problem, though, is that the people doing the "tests" don't fully understand the design of oil filters - and don't understand that fiberboard is a better material for that application, because it swells slightly when exposed to the oil and provides a better seal.

As a practical matter, any of the filters will be fine as long as you change them often enough, such as at the manufacturer's recommended interval. Fram is a top quality filter and I use them a lot, but I also use other brands. I just use whatever is on sale - again, these are all essentially commodity products, and buying on price is a good way to go. As I mentioned previously, we typically drive our vehicles for 300K miles, so it seems likely we would have experienced some problems in the last few decades if there were some material difference between oils and filters. Still, it's anecdotal evidence and not statistically significant.

[trungdok]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bIn_ZgHJaE , , Sorry Chris couldn't resist, funny as heck to watch tho

That's hilarious... I was laughing out loud in the office like a mad man.

[Cochese]

Slick-50 and other "snake oils" have also made similar claims at times, but I'm not aware of any cases where they were successful in convincing a court or automaker of this viewpoint.

Most of these never make it to court because of the costs involved on either side. A $5000 attorney's fee over a $2500 motor doesn't make much sense to a consumer. There was a very lengthy back and forth battle between a customer in Arkansas and Ford about an OCI of 7000 miles that Ford claimed destroyed her motor and the UOA came back as acceptable. She eventually took it to a third party and got $7k of the $9k total covered and walked away. She was probably smart. Cathy Covington is the name if you'd like to look it up.

I agree, but the problem is how can you prove that the extended interval did not cause damage? The secondary problem is that many or most auto warranties require compliance with the manufacturer's OCI to keep the warranty in force - it's stated as a term of the warranty.

The wording of the warranty would be interesting to look at, to see if these were recommended service intervals or required service intervals, which would be relevant to the FTC link you provided below. As for not causing damage, I believe the question becomes proving it caused the damage, as you'll see below. For proving it did, UOAs, metallurgy of bearings and other components, dimensioning with a micrometer...generally speaking, if abuse is apparent it will be easy to prove that the plantiff was reckless, especially if the UOA shows stress or the oil was below the minimum quantity.

I don't find that in the M-M act, and note that most auto warranties are "limited" warranties, which means they don't have to comply with the act. Here are a few links for those who want to read further:
http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm
http://www.free-lemon-law-guide.com/...rranty-act.php
http://www.business.ftc.gov/document...l-warranty-law

The FTC link shows that the warrantor can require the consumer to perform specific services (e.g. OCI) to maintain coverage on a limited warranty:

"1. You do not require consumers to perform any duty as a precondition for receiving service, except notifying you that service is needed, unless you can demonstrate that the duty is reasonable.

If any of these statements is not true, then your warranty is "limited".

I believe you have read the part about limited warranties incorrectly in the Act. The Act explains the difference between full and limited warranties, but never excludes limited warranties from falling under the purview of the Act or the UCC.

The Magnuson-Moss Act applies to limited warranties. A plaintiff is entitled to bring
an action under the Act based on alleged breach of a limited written warranty provided by
defendant. Mydlach v. DaimlerChrysler Corp., 364 Ill. App. 3d 135, 301 Ill. Dec. 164, 846
N.E.2d 126 (2006).

The requirement of proof has always been on the OEM to prove that an aftermarket part was the cause of failure. The burden of proof is initially on the plantiff, who only merely has to show that the defendant refuses to perform service (where the written denial comes into play).

In Universal Motors, Inc. v. Waldock, 719 P.2d 254 (Alaska 1986), the court analyzed the shifting burden of proof in a Magnuson-Moss action.
Once the consumer offers credible evidence that the defect is related to materials or workmanship, thus establishing a prima facie case of breach of warranty,
the burden shifts to the warrantor to prove consumer abuse. Id. at 259. The Alaska court noted the specific language of 15 U.S.C. § 2304(c) “places the burden of proving owner abuse squarely on the warrantor.” Waldock, 719 P.2d at 256. We agree. Cline v. Daimler-Chrysler, 113 P. 3d 468 (2005)

It certainly seems better to go with the recommended service intervals on a new car. I'm not disagreeing with that. Better to be safe than deal with a lawyer.

[tommyt654]

Yes it hilarious, ya have to watch it almost to the end. "My question is why you believe it is "price gouging"? ", Its supposed to be like all commoditys subject to supply and demand it isn't and hasn't been for several yrs thanks to Wall Street and big oils adjustments over a 40 yr span. We used to at 1 time in this country have, Oh maybe 100+ refinerys making gasoline,now we are down to maybe 30 as big oil used excuse's like cost factors instead of revamping their refineries to meet EPA specs as a reason to just shut them down, therefore driving up the cost of production intentionally and manipulating oil commodity and gasoline prices. Now you add in Speculators that Chris mentioned into the foray as we see outrageous price fluctuations like never before over anything to make greedy selfish amounts of money for their investors/shareholders. Bottom line is the country as a whole could recover much quicker if we had reasonable oil and gas prices instead of the gouged prices we currently pay at the pumps. My Dad was an oil exec at Shell for 35 yrs and I know all to well the games played on the public,some are too easily fooled/played into it nowadays still,take the games being played by big oil regarding the pipeline from Canada, won't change a thing as OPEC will merely alter production to keep demand and price at a high profit margin as will big oil, but big oil here could impact gas prices by ramping up production rebuilding older facilitys and stop selling high production overun overseas for profit to reduce prices here and move the country forward,unfortunately while a vast majority of oil company stocks are held by Americans most oil companys are not. Largest Oil company on paper is factually a bank.

[woodturner]

Most of these never make it to court because of the costs involved on either side. A $5000 attorney's fee over a $2500 motor doesn't make much sense to a consumer.

In many states (including mine), consumer protection laws provide for recovery of attorney's fees and, in some cases, double or triple damages. If the case could be proven and won, it's likely my net cost would be nothing and I might even make money on the deal. The trick is winning the case, I imagine - it's not a "slam dunk".

I believe you have read the part about limited warranties incorrectly in the Act.

I was actually restating a claim from the first link I posted. Thanks for providing the additional information and cites, and it does appear the first link got it wrong, or I inferred more than they meant from their wording.

The Act explains the difference between full and limited warranties, but never excludes limited warranties from falling under the purview of the Act or the UCC.

Understood and agreed, based on the info you provided.

It certainly seems better to go with the recommended service intervals on a new car. I'm not disagreeing with that. Better to be safe than deal with a lawyer.

Agreed - and even if one has a "slam dunk" case, court seems to always be a bit of a crap shoot. I like low risk :-)

[woodturner]

Its supposed to be like all commoditys subject to supply and demand it isn't and hasn't been for several yrs thanks to Wall Street and big oils adjustments over a 40 yr span. ....My Dad was an oil exec at Shell for 35 yrs and I know all to well the games played on the public,some are too easily fooled...bank.

Interested information, thanks. What do you think would be a "fair" price for gas in the US? Do you think the high gas prices in Europe are "market price" or are they also manipulated?

[cwsmith]

I guess I'm really "old school", in that I still get the oil changed, with a new filter every 3,000 miles.

When I was a kid, my dad was a mechanic and darned if the guy rarely ever changed the oil on the old family car. I guess it was sort of like the story of the "shoemaker's kids going barefoot." When I was 17 I bought the car (a 56' Mercury Monteray, 292 cu-in V8) from him. It had over a 100K on it and oil was as black as tar.

I had a very good friend, who had served in the German Wermacht, Panzers; early on in N. Africa and later on the Russian front. He always used to tell me how they'd take the oil out of the tanks and other vehicles and strain it through cotton cloth, the cleanse it. He used to say that oil doesn't really break down as much as it just gets dirty.

We used to use a snythetic oil in the compressors we manufactured (Ingersoll-Rand), but a big problem with it was that it would leak through the casting pores and sometimes pass the gaskets. It didn't break down at all, but it would simply leak out of the machines, almost like "sweat", and it also would often "blow-by" the oil scrapers on the rod packings.

Probably for those "old" learnings, I still get the oil changed every 3,000 miles and with it, a new filter. For me, that's only three oil changes a year, so it's not a terrible expense. I do keep my vehicles practically forever too. My last van (1991 Plymoth), had over 140K on it when I traded it in on my present 2006 Dodge Caravan. My thinking is that regardless of the oil you use, it still gets dirty and that dirt still accumulates in the filter up to the point where the filter no-longer does it's job and the oil then "by-passes". Compressor oil filters don't by-pass, but automotive filters do... hence, the big industrial compressors usually have low oil pressure shut down circuits; vehicles don't.

CWS

[tommyt654]

Interested information, thanks. What do you think would be a "fair" price for gas in the US? Do you think the high gas prices in Europe are "market price" or are they also manipulated?

.

Unfortunatley there are too many variables currently going on in Europe to offer up a price as refineries have all but shut down and switched over to diesel production as more vehicles in europe are diesel vs gas. Add to that the refineries up north took big hits after Sandy reducing production even furthur and caused the current gas spike. Look at what Delta Airlines did, they bought a refinery that was closing in order to produce their own jet fuel at lower cost to them that will make them much more competitive against other airlines in the market. We have only built 2 new refineries in 30 yrs here in the states and with europes decine in gas production facilities we are at the mercy of big oil. I would venture to say since 2000 when gas was $1.78 a gal we could easily get back to that number considering the glut of oil on the market and with Brazil getting into the oil market in a big way in a few more yrs plus Venezuelan oil coming back into high production I'd say its very doable. Will it happen,NO, big oil has us by the ***** and will continue to keep prices high to augment the luxurious lifestyles they are accustomed too and to keep shareholders like myself happy,tho I am selling off while the current market is high to make money while I can and to voice my displeasure about whats going on. I am investing instead in solar and wind futures as a viable alternative and to help the economy and planet get back on track. I'd love to see the production increase but until we either add new refinerys or at the least retrofit some older we will unfortunately be stuck above $2.75 gal for the near future to come.Also the argument here about synthetic vs reg the only thing I'd offer up is the usage of synthetics do reduce pollutants in the air and water during production and thats worth doing IMHO, but my vehicles like myself are old and weary and change at this time while worth considering are not a viable alternative costwise for me while reg oil is cheaper even at these inflated prices.

[chopnhack]

Brand of oil simply does not matter

I don't buy it.... when I was a mechanic we used to use Castrol brand oil - it must have been cheapo recycled oil because each bottle was a different color. If you stick to the recommended service periods, it probably doesn't matter, but for extended periods a better brand of oil and filter is the way to go.