Just Once

[tommyt654]

I'd like to get my hands around the neck of these engineers that design automobiles to let them work on 1 for a change 2 hrs to swap out an ingnition switch in an 89 Blazer and another 1 1/2 to replace the fuel filter,Do these guys have any idea about what they are building or do they just have really small brains to go along with their hands. Its ridiculous to try to attempt something this simple without getting mad as heck, Fuel filter was placed between the PS and engine block that you had to loosen fron the top then remove from underneath after loosening the PS pump and then remove everything even remotely near it for a compression clamp that holds it in place and I won't even to begin about the switch, remove steering wheel I knew but then the turn signal handle and you have to have a special tool to keep the spring from coming completely out otherwise (fortunately I was able to fab 1) and then 3 screws that are about as hard to see as remove, why not just pin it in place for easy removal. Probably a bad decision but the old key had just jammed in the off position and refused to budge after repeated apps of WD40 and taps with a small ball peen hoping to dislodge, after getting it out finally saw lots of brass shavings from key after numerous yrs of gratefully sticking it in with ease, Wife wonders why I only want to buy older vehicles from the late 60's and early 70's(exception on the 73 corvette where you had to undo the motor mount to change the front right spark plug due to clearance problems) cause you could work on them,now you need a manual just to change a fuse if you can find it

[BobSch]

A lot of those problems stem from the industry's habit of building the engine and transmission as one piece that's just dropped into the car body as the vehicle is assembled. The engine designers and the vehicle designers probably never talk to each other.

[mpc]

Factory assembly recurring cost reductions rule everything. Much of the design is based on ease of assembly, not ease of repair. Pretty much every car buyer looks at the sticker price but very few request detailed/specific repair costs - both planned maintenance and what typical non-maintenance repairs (e.g. new starter, new alternator, headlight assembly, clutch job) would cost.

Most cars today are assembled with the engine+transmission and much of the front suspension structure built as a single assembly... the the body is then lowered onto this assembly. Simple and quick. Few repair shops, and almost no home mechanics, have the equipment & space to reverse this... so they have to remove the engine & transmission from above which often necessitates a lot of auxiliary dis-assembly. If it's even possible; on some cars it flat-out can't be done. Major repairs on these cars are prohibitively expensive.

I too do most of the repair work on my cars... and I like going to the auto shows. I make it a point to eyeball cars with a mechanic's eye at the auto shows, challenging the sales guys with "why'd you put the fuel filter where it can't be reached? How much does it cost to have this replaced?" Hopefully there is a crowd around to hear some of these questions so they might think to ask such questions on the next car they buy.

Ignition switches and the steering wheel interlock though are a special case: they're designed to require special tools - and be a slow job - so that car thieves can't quickly/easily defeat them. Nice theory anyway.

mpc

[cwsmith]

I just took the 2006 Dodge van in for inspection. I've recently noticed the wiper switch not functioning properly, but since it's intermittant I hadn't given it much thought beyond that. Anyway, it seems that the turn-signal mechanism was working properly either, though there was no indication of that from inside the car.

So the guy tells be it needs to be replaced.... $200! Wow, am I getting too old or what? $200 for a signal switch seems ridiculous, except for the fact that everything is contained in that "stalk" and nothing is serviceable, just replaceable!

The guy tells me I'm lucky though, because on some cars that stalk assembly can be as high as $900!

Gee, I remember when my old 68" Valiant had nothing more than two contact wires... one of left, one for right, and the aluminum stalk acted as the neutral. You simple removed one screw, pulled the stalk out a bit and made sure the wire contacts hadn't broken off or dislocated.

Six months ago, I had to replace the steering rack in that van... in all my years of driving I've never had to replace any steering component. That cost me $1300. Did some checking and it seems that it's a common problem. I'm beginning to wonder about the engineering and the cost actuarials in the business and who is winning over the other.

CWS

[TB Roye]

It is all about ease of assembly. Otherwise why does cost $600 for the dealer to change the plugs in LOML Ford Expedition? I tried and couldn't get to the last two plugs on the Passengers side of the engine. So I change 6 and paid $200 for someone to change the other two. I just didn't have all the extensions and universal to do the job. I have heard of some guys raising the body up with a lift to work on the engine.
When I was working I install Police/Emergency equipment in these vehicls and working under the hood was a PAIN. The worst car I ever had to do this to was a Volvo. We had to do 4 of them for testing and it took a month for us to do the 4 cars. Volvo came by to see what we were doing and were horrified when they say their cars. Hood off, Deck lids off, interiors gutted, most of the dash dissambled some for engine area. We had 8 stalls in our special projects area each car had stall for itself and a stall for all the stuff we took off. I will see if I can find the pictures and post them The Volvos didn't work out, to small for all the stuff the officers carried and the equipment we installed. Stripping them after the testing was easy we just cut the wire and cable and then pulled hard.

Tom

[LinuxRandal]

Ah, the old days when you only needed a 26" toolbox with only SAE tools, so you could sit under the hood, next to the engine and regap the plugs every 12,000 miles.

There is a point where dependability and ease of maintenance seem to be in sync. I think we have actually passed that point, personally. However I wouldn't want to go back to points, dwell, rebuilding carbs all the time, etc.

Cars are DESIGNED for the assembly line. Then the engineers come out and disassemble one and determine special tools, etc. for the rate books. Sometimes, they realize how bad something is, that they change or modify it, in future years or runs (as an example, three hours to remove the front assembly to change headlights on an Acadia). Also, too many people either think the CEL (check engine light) means stop now (had those calls, side of road) or "doesn't that just tell you what is wrong with my car, why can't you just replace that part and fix it".
As someone who has turned wrenches, I also want to slam the engineers heads into blunt objects. But less then I want to slam the CEO's and other hierarchy that think about next quarters profits.

[BobSch]

Its a **** of a note when the bean-counter's can overrule the slip-stick boys and girls.

[LCHIEN]

A lot of those problems stem from the industry's habit of building the engine and transmission as one piece that's just dropped into the car body as the vehicle is assembled. The engine designers and the vehicle designers probably never talk to each other.

that's probably it.

It would be interesting if the testing agencies (Consumer reports, ?) gave a numerical service hours per 100,000 miles based upon the total labor hours from the (book that all the service shops use to charge hours of labor for specific tasks on specific car models) for all the recommended services as many times as required in the 100,000 mile period. For example, one spark plug change (6 hours because you have to jack the motor out), oil filter change 1.5 hour x 12 changes because you have to loosen the PS pump to get at it, etc.

The you could have a real comparison of servicability and maintenance costs of a car.

[cabinetman]

I doubt that a list of repair costs would help a buyer make a decision. Dealers don't like admitting their cars break. Then, there is of course the extended warranty, which has saved me twice.

.

[woodturner]

Factory assembly recurring cost reductions rule everything.

Exactly - it's a "pay me now" or "pay me later" question. If the engineer's designed the cars for serviceability, no one would pay the higher cost to buy them.

FWIW, there is usually a "trick" for most of this stuff, and often an internet search will reveal the trick. Spark plugs under manifolds (common to Ford Trucks) are an example. Dealer will charge you $600 to change plugs, independent will do it for $100 in an hour because he has figured out how to remove the plugs without removing the manifold.

It's not new, either - the 1960's vintage VW bugs were designed to be serviced with the engine out of the car. Step one in the factory service manual for nearly anything engine-related, such as spark plugs, was "remove engine from car".

Having spent way too many hours this summer working on a Chrysler Cirrus, though, I can certainly sympathize. The Cirrus/Sebring is widely considered to be about the worst for lack of serviceability. Just too much stuff crammed in there, and not enough room to do anything. In that car, the manifold has to be removed to change spark plugs, so it's a minimum of a two hour job.

[jdon]

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut, but there's no percentage in designing for easy access/repair. The more difficult, esp. with Special Tool #XYZ-12345 required, the less likely the DIYer or local non-dealer mechanic can do it, so more revenue for dealer, and ultimately the manufacturer.

[cwsmith]

Interesting and fun thread (I guess I like horrible memories or something).

My first "brand new" car was a 1965 VW 1200 ("Bug") and Woodturner, you are absolutely right about dropping the engine. You could watch the floor from the service desk and they had this single-column device that they would place under the engine after the car was on the lift. It cradled the four cylinders, the mechanic would extract the four engine mount bolts, and they would lower the engine to waist height for work. Took them only a very few minutes.

When my wife and I were married only a month or so, my muffler went out. Money was really tight and I decided to do it myself. I bought the new muffler at Sears, brought it home and then drove the right side of the car up on the curb in front of the apartment, so I could crawl under it.

You took out the gravel pan that surrounded the engine, and then used a cold chisel to break away a couple of manifold gaskets. (As I recall, there were actually four connections to the engine.) The darn connections on the Sears part were too short and wouldn't fit up into the engine compartment for two of those connections. I cut the ends out of a couple of cans of tomatoe paste (good thing my wife was Italian ) and fitted them as extensions. Job took me almost three hours... a friend told me that was an "admirable" amount of time.

MY 68' Plymouth Valiant, slant six was the easiest engine to work on I ever had. Plugs were a snap to change, as was the oil, filters, etc. It did have a somewhat serious flaw though...at least potentially. The gas filter was right up front, just behind the radiator and above the fan. But some mechanic at the dealer had pushed it "out of the way" or something and on one of those traditional Saturday morning checks I used to do, I discovered the fan belt was rubbing on the gas line... it had worn a fairly good groove in it, which left me wondering how many more minutes it would have taken to have it spraying gasoline over the engine. I had the local garage replace the line and I stopped going to the dealer.

My Miata is fairly easy to work on, at least for checking/changing fluids, plugs, filters, etc. Whole thing seems pretty staight forward. The Dodge Caravan has too much electronics for me. I can't imagine what a sophisticated, expensive car would cost to maintain.

My son had a BWM-built "Mini". Great engineering I suppose, but absolutely no thinking toward service. He had a rear-lid hinge break on it (he bought this used, but he may have done it...always too much crap in the trunk). The new hinge is only about $30 or so. But you need to strip the interior, remove the seats, headliner, etc. to get at it, because it's blind riveted to the roof structure. That's was over $2k, IIRC!

He also was getting a bearing "buzz" in the transaxle... they are not serviceable, only replaceable! I think he was quoted something like $6K - $7K... but they couldn't do it locally and recommended someplace in New Jersey. A week later he traded it in on a Toyota!

CWS

[mpc]

He also was getting a bearing "buzz" in the transaxle... they are not serviceable, only replaceable! I think he was quoted something like $6K - $7K... but they couldn't do it locally and recommended someplace in New Jersey. A week later he traded it in on a Toyota!

CWS

This is the typical response to the "special service tool" situations mentioned by jdon.

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut, but there's no percentage in designing for easy access/repair. The more difficult, esp. with Special Tool #XYZ-12345 required, the less likely the DIYer or local non-dealer mechanic can do it, so more revenue for dealer, and ultimately the manufacturer.

(learning from the inkjet printer makers - make the cartridges impossible to re-fill and overprice the manufacturer ones?)

Buyers get totally disgusted with outrageous service bills for their car and swear off that manufacturer forever. How often do you hear "never own a BMW beyond the warranty" because of potential repair costs? After hearing the costs some coworkers paid for what I'd consider regular repairs I have strong opinions on brands I'd never consider owning. At the auto shows I look at everything I can with an eye to "can I service this thing for 150K miles?" and the "yes" answers are getting smaller and smaller all the time. Transverse mounted V-6 engines (used in may mid-sized front drive cars) look like they'd be almost impossible to do "routine" maintenance on - like changing the spark plugs on the back side 3 cylinders... they're under the dash somewhere. Engine mounts on transverse engines? Often can't see them, let alone reach/replace them, and they are a fairly common failure point - especially the upper (anti-rocking) mount. Alternators & starters? They are NOT "lifetime" parts and should be accessible. On many cars the repair procedure for alternators is to first remove the air conditioning compressor - which means having to drain the system's refrigerant first. Not a typical "home" job.

Until/unless some independent tool company figures out a trick tool to ease these stupid jobs the consumers are at the mercy of dealer service departments. The OBD II requirements partly came about from small service shops that saw all the manufacturer specific "test" code readers being designed into car servicing... stuff they couldn't afford. Who could afford a Ford code reader plus a GM code reader plus a Toyota reader plus plus plus... So when the "car must monitor its own emissions" stuff was getting written the independent shops spoke up and said "make them use a common set of error codes & readout mechanism so we have to buy only ONE expensive tool." Those code readers, thanks to the incredible advancement pace of modern electronics & integrated circuits, ended up coming down further in price than anybody ever expected - OBD II was never intended to be "affordable" to home mechanics. Too bad such standardization can't be applied every where else - all the special tools needed to work on the mechanicals.

Note too that many car designs - either for cost reasons and/or trying to shrink the mechanicals as much as possible - are merging more parts and/or sticking more things inside the engine guts. For example, many engines on the market today have the water pump inside the timing chain/belt cover area. So when the water pump develops a leak (which it eventually will - no seal lasts forever) coolant leaks directly into the oil pan. Water in oil is a VERY fast way to end up with destroyed engine bearings. So these cars have a preventative scheduled maintenance task to replace that water pump every 50 or 60K miles. A LOT of labor just to save 2 inches of exterior engine length. Probably have to pull the engine to do that repair because the front of the engine is right against the fender area so you can't physically remove the parts.

Car magazines ought to do their readers a favor and include service time estimates from the manufacturer's guides for common tasks. Things like spark plug replacement, replacements of all fluids (transmission oil... some cars use 10 quarts of stuff that costs $70/quart! - at least note that a vehicle uses "manufacturer specific" oil), price of door locks (repairs after break-in attempts), head & tail light assemblies, alternators, starters, water pumps, timing chain/belts, electronic key fob costs, etc. If the consumer world were more aware of this stuff it'd force the manufacturers to be less aggressive in their "recurring cost reduction" programs.

sorry for the extra-long vent... this is a sore subject with me. Overly expensive repair costs often lead to delayed repairs which may be a safety issue to the vehicle driver and other cars on the road.

mpc

[Pappy]

The special tool problem extends beyond cars. There are a number of special tools needed to service my Harley. While some can be made and most are available on the net, Harley will not sell most of them to customers.

I went from a Jeep Cherokee to a Ford Widstar for the wife. The oil filter on the Jeep was on the side of the engine and could be changed standing flat-footed beside the car. On the Windstar it is above a corner brace of the frame. I got it off/on once with a clamp down type filter wrench but need to buy a ratched driven 'cup' wrench before the next oil change.

[tommyt654]

So I see pretty much everyone is on the same page here regarding these issues.As ya'll might suspect I do a lot of my own wrenchin as I too used to work at a shop(Fiat/VW)as well as a corvette shop in the 70's as wellas a speed shop or 2 and actually enjoy doing it (sometimes). I got out of it in the early 70"s to go cut grass and plant shrubs as I would often times spend hours tryin to get the grease and oil out of my clothes and body and numerous hours over the yrs gettin pimples and blackheads off my arms,face, etc. I was a line mechanic and was at that time in the mid to late 70's makin about $18 an hour,now they make $80-100 an hour at the dealerships which I think is ridiculuosly high,but considering what they have to deal with now vs what I did back then they are prolly worth it. Although I'd bet most wouldn't stand a chance at diagnosis without computer aid nowadays as I don't either. Its all hit and miss with me if something goes wrong and I have an analogy I start unpluggin and hope to find the problem. The local auto parts place no longer carry the OBDII hookups to borrow anymore and I prolly should buy one as I'll be driving these older cars till I can't(hopefully 30 more yrs). Maybe things will change but doubtful, in the meantime I'll continue to keep what I have running well and the oil changed regularly, mainly fishin an gardening a lot now anyways (very little woodworkin until I get more room) but I still hate it when little things(ignition switch) go south and require gobs of ridiculous things to remove in order to get to the part,Gawd help me if the danged computer ever goes out on this thing,maybe I should buy a spare just to have the parts