Using my son's tools, no more

[greenacres2]

I'm mostly c-man, especially if yoou NEED a full kit, some of the kit prices are very good.

Very hot in your town today Aimless. I am working the NHRA race, Ohio next weekend will be cooler.
Earl

[woodturner]

Recently and I don't know if this is Sears, or due to Danaher and the Cooper industries venture, they moved most of their tool production to China.

The recent change was a change in labeling guidelines - Craftsman tools have been assembled in the US from foreign made components for at least a decade. Recent labeling guideline changes prompted the change in labeling from "made in US" to "made in China".

Of course, country of origin is no indicator of quality - China makes some products better than any country in the world, while "US made" is an indicator of low end "junk" for some products.

The best advice is to compare the design and quality of each product, rather than relying on price, country of origin, or other grossly inaccurate measures.

[woodturner]

I bought a Kobalt socket set on clearance after Christmas, and I was blown away with the fit and finish and feel.

I have bought a few of the Kobalt's on clearance to get the "axxes" feature.

They look nice, but don't seem to have the strength or accuracy of Craftsman. Like many "low end tools" the sockets are made to a larger tolerance. As a result, in higher torque applications, the sockets are too "loose" and will round the fastener head, where a better made socket with tighter tolerances such as a Craftsman would not.

My first choice remains Craftsman 12 point sockets. The 12 points allow the sockets to fit in more orientations and are no more likely to round the fastener head, contrary to the popular myth that "6 point is better" (Both types have the same contact area, the contact is only at the "points" of the head when the socket is loaded). Couple that with a higher-tooth count ratchet, and it makes working on appications with limited access such as cars especially a MUCH more pleasant task.

[JimD]

The assumption you make in saying that a 12 point is no more likely to round the corners is that neither the nut or the socket yield. It is not uncommon to see a nut yield and I have seen cheap 12 point sockets yield. The advantage of the six point is that you essentially cannot yield the nut enough to round over the corners. The other circumstance where the 12 point is a liability is if you are not really on the fastener comepletely correctly. With something like a grade 8 nut you are right. For more common nuts, you are not IMHO. On a soft steel nut that is stubborn, I may distort it a little with a 6 point socket but I cannot distort it enough to spin the socket on the nut. With a 12 point, I can and have rounded a soft steel nut when I was on there correctly and nothing was wrong with my tools.

I also do not think it is any big advantage to not have to turn the socket as much to get it on the nut. I agree that fine tooth ratchets are nice and even in some circumstances necessary, however. My Craftsman that doesn't work well has fine teeth so it was my normal tool when it worked.

Jim

[woodturner]

The assumption you make in saying that a 12 point is no more likely to round the corners is that neither the nut or the socket yield. It is not uncommon to see a nut yield and I have seen cheap 12 point sockets yield. The advantage of the six point is that you essentially cannot yield the nut enough to round over the corners.

Yes, that is the common myth, but testing shows it's not accurate. The issues is that both six and twelve point sockets make contact only at the "points" of the fastener and there is no difference in contact area or torque.

I realize a lot of people really believe that six point are better, and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Lab testing and even simple DIY testing readily shows that there is no difference, however.

If anyone is interested in trying it at home, I can explain the simple DIY test.

No disagreement that cheap sockets will cause problems, including damaging fastener heads, regardless of the number of points. The issue is often that the tolerance is too great, so the socket cams on the fastener head.

[LinuxRandal]

The recent change was a change in labeling guidelines - Craftsman tools have been assembled in the US from foreign made components for at least a decade. Recent labeling guideline changes prompted the change in labeling from "made in US" to "made in China".

Of course, country of origin is no indicator of quality - China makes some products better than any country in the world, while "US made" is an indicator of low end "junk" for some products.

The best advice is to compare the design and quality of each product, rather than relying on price, country of origin, or other grossly inaccurate measures.

I am going to vehemently disagree that the "law change" was the reason. I picked up some that are DIFFERENT then they are now that they are brought in from China. (their professional wrenches for one) There are even subtle differences in the ratchet design (which I am not a fan of their reguiar ratchets). They could have just as easily changed when they changed supplier, as they had done in the past (the Pro wrenches were originally made by SK, then the design changed when Danaher US took production, and changed again when Danaher China took production)
Stanley tool group, lost three different cases against them, for the labeling thing, so that is nothing new.

I do not disagree on looking at the design and quality of each product though. I think the last generation of Craftsman raised panel ratchets, both foreign and domestic, are junk.
I just remember what Sears went through in the 80's when they started selling imported Craftsman tools, then they went to selling "Sears" branded tools (getting out of the warranty), and I see that again with the dropping of items (as they did before), and the watering down and flat out lying I have seen at the store level, with the Craftsman Evolv tools. I want to see them get back to what brought them back from that (switching back to USA stuff and promoting it).

[Cochese]

I have bought a few of the Kobalt's on clearance to get the "axxes" feature.

They look nice, but don't seem to have the strength or accuracy of Craftsman. Like many "low end tools" the sockets are made to a larger tolerance. As a result, in higher torque applications, the sockets are too "loose" and will round the fastener head, where a better made socket with tighter tolerances such as a Craftsman would not.

My first choice remains Craftsman 12 point sockets. The 12 points allow the sockets to fit in more orientations and are no more likely to round the fastener head, contrary to the popular myth that "6 point is better" (Both types have the same contact area, the contact is only at the "points" of the head when the socket is loaded). Couple that with a higher-tooth count ratchet, and it makes working on appications with limited access such as cars especially a MUCH more pleasant task.

I have a Craftsman set and a Kobalt set, and the Craftsman set has been banished to household use. The Kobalt is nicer to use, and nicer to feel, and haven't noticed any discernible difference with it latching onto a head. I also prefer to use the right tool for the job - 6 for 6, 12 for 12 if at all possible.

[cwsmith]

From my perspective, so much depends on what you are looking for... "cheap" and affordable to your budget, or something that is worthy of a lifetime of use and possible hand off to your grandson or daughter.

I have a small Craftsman socket set, which I was given by my FIL, when my wife and I bought our first car together (68' Plymoth Valiant). A few years later, I added 75-piece socket set and both imperial and metric open end/box wrench sets... all Craftsman. Together, they have provided well for all my needs.

In the early 70's with our first house, I bought a few hand-held power tools, all Craftsman; and in 1974 my first big tool, a Craftsman RAS. That took care of all my needs until my "retirement" in 2003.

Since then, I've populated my little shop with a BT-3K and a few Ridgid and Ryobi tools. I can only afford to buy on sale, like getting my BT for $150. But above all, I only buy it when I see an absolute need. I like to think I'm a user rather than a collector.

CWS

[woodturner]

I picked up some that are DIFFERENT then they are now that they are brought in from China.

Yes, there was also a design change in the past year or so. May or may not be related to a change in suppliers, but does appear to coincide with the labeling change due to the guideline change. They could have moved production back to the US in conjunction with the design change, but didn't. The design change could have also been related to a change of suppliers, to make the tools fit better with a new manufacturer's process.

[woodturner]

I also prefer to use the right tool for the job

I agree with using the "right" tool, and that using the wrong tool often leads to frustration or worse. Like the sailor who used the glass ashtray as a hammer

12 point sockets are designed for and are the "right tool" for four, six, and twelve point bolt heads, but it's also OK to use 6 point sockets on six point bolt heads, nothing wrong with that. The only real difference is they are single use.

The newer "multihead" sockets exploit the fact that sockets apply pressure only on the corners of the fastener. As a result, they fit eight to twelved different types of fastener heads with the same socket. The weight and space savings by having one socket instead of twelve can be critical in some applications where transport space and weight is an issue, such as spacecraft and aircraft.

[jdon]

This thread seems to have evolved into a resurrection of a sometimes heated discussion here, just over 6 months ago re: 6 vs 12 point sockets...

[sscherin]

I realize a lot of people really believe that six point are better, and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Lab testing and even simple DIY testing readily shows that there is no difference, however.

For a perfect undamaged nut I agree.. Now If you have a soft damage prone over tightened nut or a prevously damaged fastener a 6 point is going to be my choice..

Take my 2004 Nissan quest as an example..

The nut that locks the belt tensioner is a soft POS the dealer over torqued to the point it rounded with a craftsman 12 point box wrench trying to loosen it. I had to go buy a 6 point wrench to get the **** thing off. By the way on a Saturday a 6 point open box wrench is nearly impossible to find anywhere except sears.

Bottom line. If I feel the nut or bolt is going to or has started to yield I switch to 6 points..

When I feel like messing with friends who come over for help with something I hand em an 8 point socket.

[sciguy]

Aimless,
If you happen to live close to an auto tech (mechanic) trade school, you might be able to find some bargains on Snap-on or Matco tools at pawnshops. The students at these schools typically buy professional grade tools and sometimes, for whatever reason, they have to quit school and will sell their tools to the local pawnshops. I was able to buy some good tools this way many years ago; it would be worth checking out at least, especially with the current questionable origin/quality of many consumer hand tools.
Hope this helps.
Mike

[cabinetman]

This thread seems to have evolved into a resurrection of a sometimes heated discussion here, just over 6 months ago re: 6 vs 12 point sockets...

Yes it has. Without adding to that diversion, I can remember starting my hand tool collection. It was as a kid fixing things like bicycles. At the time the simplest forms of "sets" of wrenches, sockets, and screwdrivers were a luxury, and at times just the single tool that was needed made it to my toolbox.

But as luck would have it, a lost socket may get replaced with whatever was available as a single. When it became obvious that tools were improved, some of it made sense. So the socket efficiency question seemed to get answered when brands came up with the convex wall design with their sockets that provided socket wall contact with the nut/bolt head flats.

So, I made my tool acquisition a matter of covering my bases. To have the object of my labor covered as well as possible. To buy in sets, with as many of the possibilities of "need" covered. Because, its frustrating when what you need at the moment isn't there.

.

[annunaki]

I'll Vote for Craftsman

I'll Vote for Craftsman because of their staying power.

Does anyone remember the JC Penny "Pencrest" line of tools with their lifetime warranty?