Whirlwind Safety Device Patentend

[tommyt654]

Like I said Lee maybe or maybe not, but his unit does a very admirable job of dust collection I noticed ,as well as protecting one from one's self. I never said you were on anyones payroll,just wondered about that affilliation and why you can't see the advancement of this technology as being at the forefront of what we hope will be an end to future legislation by the nanny state regarding the safety issue. Seems to work quite well to me,but I'll plod along with my 10 digits and pushstick

[Cochese]

I'm just happy there's at least some level of competition and innovation being developed.

If we as a society are to be forced into using things (which aren't always bad things, the guard for instance), I want the very best things possible that don't screw over the user.

[pelligrini]

why you can't see the advancement of this technology as being at the forefront of what we hope will be an end to future legislation by the nanny state regarding the safety issue.

I don't see the whirlwind tech as being on the forefront of a solution to some of the possibly pending legislation. A lot of the discussion and data I've read regarding to the CPSC regulations deals with blade guard removal. A tech that relies on having a guard in place might not go over well.

One of the reasons riving knives are now required on tablesaws is supposedly due to a lot of injuries caused by blade guard and splitter removal.

[Stytooner]

I never said you were on anyones payroll,just wondered about that affilliation and why you can't see the advancement of this technology as being at the forefront of what we hope will be an end to future legislation by the nanny state regarding the safety issue.

I don't know how you read that into any of my replies either. I said I look forward to this being developed further. The only negative thing I mentioned was that this may not be ready right now. I still contend that it isn't. Don't be so quick that the mere mention of SS blinds you from the context it was mentioned in.
I don't own a SS and have no plans for one. I do sell a lot of guards that fit them though.

[tommyt654]

Your right , perhaps I interpeted your wording incorrectly, I see this not only as competitor to SS,but also to your guard as the dust collection seems quite nice plus it has the added safety feature. Your product is fine for what it is,but this provide's additional features up and above that of yours,hence comments of yours regarding the item seemed biased to me as a whole.Either way it looks promising and as others have stated its nice to see the innovation and competition. As far as the riving knives my understanding was they have been used in Europe for many yrs and only after saw manufacturers realized the added safety feature of having one and the CSPC realizing the benefits have they started to require it on newer saws, old technology developed in Europe that finally made it over here.

[Stytooner]

There are old American iron that carried riving knives too. I think a few of the Walker Turner ones had them and possibly a few others.
The technology has been around a long time. It just takes a long time to see much new technology implemented on the table saw. There is someone who's name shall not be mentioned, that has implemented some new stuff lately. He gets roasted for it often.

Competition is what brings about better products I think.
I am not the only one making blade guards and even though this is a niche market, there is room for more. I would welcome competition, but this won't be direct competition either. It is more akin to Saw Stop rather than a shark guard because of cost and electronics. The only thing you have to plug in on a shark guard is the dust hose.

[LinuxRandal]

old technology developed in Europe that finally made it over here.

And short fences are new technology too, LOL.

You might want to check out the forum at Vintage machinery (the old OWWM forum), as several old saws had them. Oliver springs to mind, but there were a few others.
This doesn't mention how consumer saws, like our BT's had them. (customer didn't make a big enough demand)

Edit:

Lee mentions something that made me remember something I said long ago. Why wouldn't a school or commercial business, place this guard on the Sawstop, to save the cost of the brake and blade as much as possible? Not mentioning redundancy.

[ironhat]

Apologies for finding this thread so late. Wasn't Sarge a big proponent of the short fence. I know that Niki (RIP) was. BTW, the link to the new brake info on the first page of the thread no longer works or directs you to the desired placed - that address is even near the top of Google's search result. Here is the address of the producer of that device.

[david10]

Flesh-Sensing Saw Guard

Hello Folks,

I'm the "Whirlwind table saw safety guy," and was told about your chat and thought maybe I could answer some questions. Our first patent issued 12/2011 and we have others pending.

My goal has always been to have these issued and pending patents preferably assigned (i.e., sold) or alternatively licensed to established machinery manufacturers ASAP to offer other possible answers to help bring down the terrible accident record of consumer grade table saws and similar machines. My financial goal from this is short term and very modest.

ABOUT REMOVING THE WHIRLWIND GUARD

Yes, the flesh-sensor is in the blade guard/enclosure. The sensor may be disabled with a supervisory key and the guard may then be left in place for dust collection and anti-kickback features. Or, the guard may be entirely removed and the saw operated in that manner. I strongly suggest with at least a riving knife. My design concept is that all the most dangerous operations can be done much more safely with the flesh-sensing guard in place. If the guard must be removed for a particular operation, it is probably to accommodate a large workpiece or assembly. In that case the operator has a much greater safety margin as the operator’s hands need not be placed dangerously close to the blade in those circumstances. I’ve built a lot of American classic furniture and never found need for a tenoning jig and never saw one in four years of trade high school cabinetmaking. I mention this only because many have raised the tenoning jig issue. If the jig is well designed the operators hands should not be in danger so jig away without the guard!

But don't forget, with the guard in place you have extraordinary anti-kickback protection, a super bright blade light and above table dust collection.

The arbor nut loosening is a multi-answer topic. I have experienced this happening and though it has not posed a safety issue, it needs to be dealt with. The simple solution is to add a second arbor nut and carefully tighten both arbor nuts separately. The second solution which I like is to employ a thread locking compound such as LOCTITE “271 High Strength.” Then if you wish, add the second nut for both a “belt & suspenders” approach. The locking compound takes some time to fully cure so be sure you do not trigger the blade brake before it cures. The inconvenience here is that it takes much more torque to later loosen the arbor nut with a wrench for blade changes, but I don’t change blades very often so it is not a problem I’ve found objectionable..

The third answer I’m working is a proprietary method suitable for solving the problem in newly manufactured machines and I encourage any budding inventors to also tackle this interesting problem.

I hope this helps explain a little. -- David

[os1kne]

Thanks for adding to the discussion!

[pelligrini]

Cool, Thanks for the additional info David.

I couldn't tell from the photos on your website, but does your guard have the ability to be removed and the riving knife still stay in place?. I use one of Lee's Sharkguards on my saw. http://www.thesharkguard.com/ The thing I like best is that I am able to remove the plastic guard when needed and still have the riving knife in place. Before I got a shark I there would be many times I would leave my OEM guard off for extended periods as it was cumbersome to re-install. My saw also folds up and I remove the guard at the end of every session to keep it from flopping around when I'm moving the saw.

Have you had any contact with the CSPC, especially in regards to some of the latest possible legislation regarding flesh sensing tech?

[Stytooner]

Thanks for the additional info, David. Great to get the correct scoop on this. I am glad that it can be used without a guard.
The whole concept of my guards design was because guys need to remove the guard often and just like was mentioned, often leave the originals off because of the lack of easy on/off.
I'm pretty sure you are aware of that, but if you haven't yet, I would suggest you do the same.
Most of all the new guards now on saws with a riving knife are designed to be versatile just like the Shark guards. There are times when you only need a riving knife. Then times you may want pawls as well. Other times the full blown guard.

I look forward to hearing more about these. Keep up the effort. I think it is worth it.

[david10]

Answers to Whirlwind Questions

Erik and Lee,

When the Whirlwind guard is in place it offers full anti-kickback protection without splitters, riving knives, or so-called anti-kickback pawls – which seldom work on hardwood or laminates in the first place. However; you hit on a very good point here about riving. My newer designs allow for a riving knife to be in place both with or without the Whirlwind guard also being in place and I strongly recommend using the riving knife if the Whirlwind guard is NOT in place.

Regarding CPSC, we made a formal Whirlwind table saw safety presentation in Washington to US CPSC and the public including the machine tool industry in March 2011 and we try to remain in contact with both CPSC and the industry. We are aware of the newly introduced CA legislative table saw safety bill. We also hosted a week of Whirlwind open conferences in November 2011 at the National Academies of Sciences Conference Center and invited all the major industry players to attend and to discuss and subsequently offer us confidential proposals on how they might work with us to bring products to market. We demonstrated flesh-sensing emergency blade braking on four types of table saws as well as a band saw and a scroll saw.

We got a much bigger turnout than expected (participants from four different countries) but no serious subsequent proposals. As mentioned on our website, it appears the major table saw manufacturers are just standing pat and waiting to see what, if any, new safety standards the CPSC might impose upon them in the years ahead.

Regards,

David

[Stytooner]

That is apparently standard SOP for these guys to take the wait and see position. Typically this seems to mean "No new innovations."
This subject might be a bit different though since so many are getting involved.
It has already changed for the better just since I started offering guards in 2003. Better guard designs was the first major step I have seen these guys take and that was pretty much forced on them.

That said, not all the new designs are that much better. Porter Cable 270 TS is sold at Lowe's. I bought one for my new shop and I have to say they really dropped the ball on the quick change design for their guard. I had a hard time getting it to work correctly and actually had to remove the rear panel on the saw to be able to successfully install the riving knife correctly each time. The rest of the guard system is typical of the new style though. Just sad to see such a nice chance to make something very user friendly go so wrong by a big maker.
The design looks elegant enough, it just does not work well at all. Love to see them update that RK bracket mount.
The Shark's new knife though, once installed has to be fiddled with far less than the original.

[pelligrini]

When the Whirlwind guard is in place it offers full anti-kickback protection without splitters, riving knives, or so-called anti-kickback pawls – which seldom work on hardwood or laminates in the first place. However; you hit on a very good point here about riving. My newer designs allow for a riving knife to be in place both with or without the Whirlwind guard also being in place and I strongly recommend using the riving knife if the Whirlwind guard is NOT in place.

How does the Whirlwind provide anti kickback protection without a riving knife in place? Like with the overarm installation? Does it sense forward movement of a workpiece and stop the saw? If so, that would be very cool. A lot of the older saws really don't have the means for installing a riving knife. Splitters help, but they really don't offer the kickback protection that a properly installed riving knife does. I haven't totally read everything on the Whirlwind site or watched all the videos, yet. Personally, I don't like pawls. I think they create more problems than they are worth; like marred and scratched workpieces.

The manufacturers stance doesn't surprise me. If any of the new proposed legislation goes through the manufacturers will probably be scrambling around trying to come up with ways to comply. While I don't like the way the recent Osario case turned out with the finding of the manufacturer to be at fault I do think the manufacturers should be a lot more active in developing new protections. If they keep sitting on their hands I'm sure there will be quite a few more cases finding against them.