What is going on with these Toyotas and SA?

[cgallery]

This Toyota sudden acceleration issue is very interesting.

I can't figure out if there is an underlying problem that Toyota can't figure out (or won't admit), or if this is a case of mass hysteria. Or a little of both.

Some of the reports from drivers that I've heard recounted on the radio are very suspicious. I heard one man/woman couple say that after they had gained control of the car and shut it down, that the car started again and took off. As if they were driving Christine [Stephen King].

The news sites are full of stories from people that I don't believe claimed they had the SA problem previously, but now seem to have it AFTER the proposed fix has been applied.

OTOH, the gov't is saying 52 people have died as a result of the SA problem. That is not an insignificant #. [Not that one death would be insignificant, but you know what I'm saying.]

What do you think? How is this going to end?

[sweensdv]

In a letter to the editor in this mornings newspaper the writer claims to know the reason why this problem occurred in the first place. According to the letter writer the reason why is that Toyota's aren't union made. So the obvious solution would be to unionize Toyota's labor force right? Oh wait, wouldn't that also mean that all Detroit made cars that have ever had a recall that those defects were caused because the cars were made by union workers?

You ask how this is going to end? It's simple, like every other little thing that goes wrong in this country, a bunch of lawyers will get rich and very little will change. In the future there still will be defects in mechanical products.

[Uncle Cracker]

These recent gas pedals are all "fly-by-wire", meaning that there is no mechanical cable. An electronic relay sends the signal to the throttle. They simply haven't worked the bugs out of the system (like they should have...). I think they may have compounded their problem by coming up with a less-than-perfect "band-aid" solution.

[gsmittle]

You ask how this is going to end? It's simple, like every other little thing that goes wrong in this country, a bunch of lawyers will get rich and very little will change. In the future there still will be defects in mechanical products.

There are already ambulance-chasers in my area advertising for "Toyota sudden-acceleration victims."

There will ALWAYS be defects in anything humans make. Zero defects is a good goal but unobtainable, but hopefully leads to minimal defects. That also means fixing problems right away, and fixing the process that lead to the problem.

My shiny new Nissan Titan is drive-by-wire. You better believe I've reviewed what to do if the throttle sticks.

g.

[TB Roye]

I too think it is a software issue or some kind of electrical interference problem. With all the sensors and and computer controlled things in the vehicles these days all you need is a sensor that is out of tolerance and give a bad reading, or maybe it is something in the Cruise Control and the resume function kicks in for some reason. I don't think it is mechanical in the true since of the word. Back in the 80's while working for the CHP equipping Patrol vehicles we had to add ground strap to the exhaust stem and front and rear bumpers to solve a problem between the radio/emergency equipment we added and the Chevy ECM module. I have forgotten exactly what the issue was but adding the extra ground solved it. It was something like key the mic and the trunk opened. It just came back to me. Key the mic. and shut the engine off was one issue, not fun in a high speed chase. I can remember adding shielding to some of the electrical components in other vehicles when wiring either the vehicles or the the wiring added were to close together and the interference that was caused.
There were time when the vehicle came back from the dealer and we had to track down some electrical issue because they moved the wiring and disturbed the shielding. Been retired 7 years and now it all comes back to me.

Tom

[knotley]

The majority of manufacturers use drive by wire:


http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...o/4347704.html

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...524_page_3.htm

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_170186.asp

Audi in the 1980s was not at fault. Driver error.


"For those of you who have been following the story of David Gilbert and his assessment of the Toyota throttle system...you might find this link interesting. For the last few weeks or so Gilbert as been hyping up a test that he conducted where he claims to have discovered a "hidden issue" with the electronic throttles in Toyotas...a problem, that when it occurs, isn't even stored in the car's ECU.

Anything can be made to "fail" if the right test is administered. However, that raises the question...is the test relevant in the real world? That's been what many auto experts have been asking of Gilbert's test. Is it even something that could occur in a real world situation? It does not seem to be.

Listen to this guy rip David Gilbert's little experiment a new one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gQWGZ8uBw"

"The majority of auto manufacturers now use Drive By Wire systems. Toyota by far isn't the only manufacturer to be heavily scrutinized regarding safety issues with Drive By Wire but since they are considered to have deep pockets they are singled out to be the poster child.

What most people don't realize is that Drive By Wire systems are primarily a response to tightening emission standards. Replacing the mechanical linkage and cable controls with highly advanced and precise electronic control sensors theoretically improves engine efficiency while reducing vehicle emissions.

The problem is that anyone who has ever worked in telecommunications knows that ANY wireless telecommunications link no matter how simple, sophisticated or fail safe can suffer interference. The isolated safety issues is the price you pay for the insistence upon using this type of technology in a place that it should not be. Our illustrious governments, in their naivety, ignorance and zeal to satisfy special interest zealots are the real culprits in all of this foolishness."

[LinuxRandal]

I read a bit about Steve Wozniak and how he was able to get his car to fail (accelerate) multiple times. He never said specifically how, but I would prefer to have people like this who could recreate the conditions, giving me feedback, rather then the ones I had when I wrenched: "It just goes".

As for a car that self starts, well between Hybrid cars, that start the engine over a certain speed, and these new cars that stop using half their cylinders to save gas, I wonder if some of the code for them, is getting left in the computers of cars that shouldn't have them.

Like Tom, I know how electrical issues can cause cars to do "wonky" things. Even if there is a common issue in the above recalled cars, it doesn't mean that is the the only issue, in all, or even any individual car. I've seen a lot of backyard mechanics, that just don't get anything electrical. We had one guy who had an old truck, on the third engine swap (different engines/transmissions) every time, who left a cutoff hot wire, lying on the manifold, by a leaking fuel line. And he didn't understand why the car was starting on fire whenever he started it.

[cgallery]

The problem is that anyone who has ever worked in telecommunications knows that ANY wireless telecommunications link no matter how simple, sophisticated or fail safe can suffer interference.

I lost you there. Are you saying they have wireless communications between the accelerator and the computer or something?

[smorris]

I had a Falcon back in the 70's that had uncontrolled and sudden acceleration. Seems a motor mount broke and the engine would rock when you gave it gas, which would pull the linkage, which would give it more gas and it would rock more...lather, rinse, repeat. 0-OMG is a very brief time, that was pretty scary to a 18yo but the key was right there to shut it down.

[jackellis]

Toyota screwed the pooch by ignoring the problem and then trying to cover it up. I'm more worried about idiot drivers than a potential accelerator problem with my Tacoma, but if you believe what the congressional investigators uncovered, failing to deal with the issue promptly is Toyota's biggest sin. It'll take a long time to repair their reputation.

FWIW, nearly all modern jetliners use fly by wire control. When the pilot moves the throttles or the flight controls, signals are sent to actuators. FBW saves weight at the expense of complexity. Less weight means less fuel means the airlines are more likely to survive.

[cgallery]

I read a bit about Steve Wozniak and how he was able to get his car to fail (accelerate) multiple times. He never said specifically how, but I would prefer to have people like this who could recreate the conditions, giving me feedback, rather then the ones I had when I wrenched: "It just goes".

I couldn't agree more.

With the explosion of cases getting reported, I'd sort of expect to hear more from engineers that have experienced the problem first-hand.

After all, I KNOW that any engineer that is driving a later-model Toyota is trying their hardest to recreate the problem.

Seriously, give Loring or any of the other engineers here a new Toyota and I GUARANTEE you that within 24-hours, they're going to be on an expressway screwing-around.

[JimD]

There are several things we do not have to wonder about:

1) Cars cannot overpower their brakes if the driver does not mess up. Car and Driver did an interesting test. You can see it at this link: http://www.caranddriver.com/features...tion-tech_dept. A Camry with V6 stopped only a few feet longer distance from 70 mph with the gas floored than it stopped with the foot off the gas. Even a mustang with over 500hp stopped from 100 mph with the gas floored. Cars do not overpower their brakes absent a mechanical malfunction or driver error.
2) Most incidents of unintended accelertion are people pushing on the gas when they think they are pushing on the brake. There is no other reasonable explanation. The government came to this conclusion in the Audi incident and I am confident it is equally true this time. But a car manufacturer looks like a complete jerk if they tell the family that just lost a loved one this.
3) Toyota's are not unusually good or bad in terms of susceptibility to having the accelerator pedal stick down. The use of clips on the mats is better than what is on my Suzuki (nothing) but worse than what is on my BMW (velcro - don't have to do anything to stick it in place). BMW also hinges the gas pedal off the floor so nothing can get under it and stick it open. I think the biggest thing is BMW has a logic circuit that turns the gas off if the brake and gas are both depressed for more than a few seconds. I suspect all cars will have this soon. It should cost very little. BMWs, Infinities, VWs, Porsches, and Chrysler products have this circuit now (the C&D article discusses it).

4) Toyota messed up big time trying to minimize costs early on instead of doing someting.

Jim

[LCHIEN]

usually when problems are real difficult to solve, I find there's usually two problems going on, one masks the other or adds misleading stuff to the symptoms list.

Toyotas already said there's a floor mat problem and a sticky metal support problem, i would not be surprised to find another problem lurking there. Funky electronics or software can be very hard to diagnose, isolate and troubleshoot. It's a general concensus that you cannot present all electronic conditions in testing to completely validate the system, you must conjectiure all the possible failure mechanisms and then postulate how they might be arrived at and then test those, ignoring the mroe benign conditions. missing possible failure avenues can lead to one in a billion chances ocurring, when you have millions of cars with thousands of hours each then it will happen, but not in testing, only to the end users. Radio interference (so called electromagnetic susceptability) is another very non intuitive failure mode. Its hard to predict and has a lot to do with when exactly it occurs. Rigorous testing usually prevents this from getting into consumer and commercial products.

[knotley]

I lost you there. Are you saying they have wireless communications between the accelerator and the computer or something?

I think they are saying that a car's computer ECU unit could be interfered with by a cellphone.

[cabinetman]

Here's an interesting article.
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