Why are people stupid

[leehljp]

That's the problem with watching a skilled person do a job - they make it look easy.

Soldering is more complicated than one might think, particularly for electronic assemblies. First is the size issue - how do you solder something you can't see without a microscope? Then there is the lead issue - most shops are moving to no-lead solder, which is more difficult. What about flux? What kind, how will you clean it off after you solder? What if the board is conformal coated? What if the solder mask is damaged?

FWIW, it takes a day or two of training to teach someone who "knows how to solder" to learn to solder correctly on contemporary electronic assemblies.

BTW, most of the soldering rework now is done on hot air reflow machines - soldering irons are too big for the work, and if the tip is made small enough to work, it can't retain enough heat to melt the solder.

I agree that most soldering needs to be and is relegated to computer controlled machining. I learned welding first and soldering later, but no big deal. Not from a teacher but just watching and doing it. As a 10 year old on our farm, it was part of mine and everyone's responsibility to fix a broken machine, plow, disk or whatever. Strength was paramount - and no half done jobs allowed. No training provided. It just had to be done, no ifs, ands or buts. You saw the problem, you analyzed the problem and fixed it, young or old. If you didn't, life could be cruel at the dinner plate.

AS an aside, I never took a welding class in my life. When our Ag teacher got wind that I could weld, he asked my dad to make me join the FFA and go to a district welding contest. I won. Strength was always first in my mind, with pretty being second. For the contest, I did a good combo.

Soldering was similar. Watch and observe or just figure it out. I can't remember how many Heath kits I assembled and how many radios I made from scratch just following schematics and buy parts from Allied Radio.

When I was young, food and life itself depended on doing it right the first time. People are not used to this kind of philosophy today, and it is a different day for sure. I am glad that there are safety features and training so that many don't have to make the mistakes that cost life, limbs, disabilities etc, especially when I think of my grand kids.

For the most part, good observation skills are not needed for survival in today's world as it was 50 years ago and before, and deductive reasoning skills are becoming left out of the class room as well. However, good and great leaders will have good observational skills with the ability to learn "on the fly" from the situation that most people just overlook.

[LCHIEN]

I can't remember how many Heath kits I assembled and how many radios I made from scratch just following schematics and buy parts from Allied Radio.

they don't make heath kits any more for a reason. Wood turner is completely right except i don't think a day or two training is enough. He forgot to mention both sides of the board are covered with parts. Most of the time there's not enough room to get a solder iron in there.

I used a large illuminated magnifying glass and a hot air reflow station as well as a super fine tip solder iron for the last project I just did which was merely to change a few components and connect the boards to each other.

[leehljp]

they don't make heath kits any more for a reason. Wood turner is completely right except i don't think a day or two training is enough. He forgot to mention both sides of the board are covered with parts. Most of the time there's not enough room to get a solder iron in there.

We are definitely on an Apple/Orange discussion here.

Can you solder? Can most anyone pick up a soldering iron and learn to solder?
SURE CAN and it is fairly easy too. This was the "context" of 'soldering' in my understanding. It has long been known that soldering on commercial electronics is an automated thing, but that is not "hand" soldering as mentioned originally. Different category altogether. As to Heath kits, I don't know about the US but over here, even in some home centers and hobby stores, I see electronic kits that require hand soldering.

Can just anyone solder on boards that are used in mass production electronics for consumer usage? Absolutely not. That is not the same thing nor was it even mentioned as the same thing. The hand picking "apple" discussion jumped to machine picking of "oranges" in this category. IF the commercial aspect were the only way to look at it - why are there so many soldering irons available in RS and other places along with dozens of kinds of solder for doing by hand?

Hand soldering was the subject.

[woodturner]

It has long been known that soldering on commercial electronics is an automated thing, but that is not "hand" soldering as mentioned originally.

While production soldering is done with automated machinery, repairs and rework are done with "hand soldering". A hot air reflow workstation is used - it blows hot air on the top and bottom of the board. Dental tools or picks are used to position the parts, capillary action from the solder holds everything in place until it cools down.

[leehljp]

While production soldering is done with automated machinery, repairs and rework are done with "hand soldering". A hot air reflow workstation is used - it blows hot air on the top and bottom of the board. Dental tools or picks are used to position the parts, capillary action from the solder holds everything in place until it cools down.

I agree with that. However, the statement of "using a soldering iron" has nothing to do with that. The OP and soldering iron usage is in context of its simplicity - which will include that $9.95 to $29.95 soldering iron from the neighborhood hardware store or HD, Lowes and RS.

Taking the OP and soldering irons to reflow workstation rework and repairs is somewhat like joining in a conversation on ultralights and then comparing it to commercial airline flight characteristics, technology and expertise. Apples and oranges; context.

[woodturner]

Taking the OP and soldering irons to reflow workstation rework and repairs is somewhat like joining in a conversation on ultralights and then comparing it to commercial airline flight characteristics, technology and expertise. Apples and oranges; context.

I understand your point, but I disagree. Repair work can and is done in the field with soldering irons, though it may take more than one. We use what we have to get the work done. It's a little like an airline pilot flying an ultralight in an emergency.

It's not too tough to change resistors and capacitors down to 0603 size with two soldering irons, one on either side of the part. There are also special tips with a notch cut in them to fit around the part and heat both sides simultaneously.

There are also various aids sold to assist the hobbyist who only has a soldering iron in assembling modern electronics. Current "heath kit" type products generally contain these aids. A lot of hobbyists use a hot plate as a substitute for a reflow rework station.

Can't really do BGA's, though. Pretty much have to do those in the lab or factory.

[leehljp]

I sure am glad that I didn't know how complicated soldering is. If I had known that, I might not have made all of those radios - over a dozen tube type, a dozen transistor/IC type, of AM, AM/FM, Shortwave etc, VOMs, stereos amps (still workable 40 years later) and other things that needed soldering. I managed to make enough off of each kit or schematic built to buy the next and have a little money left over I personally didn't think soldering those (tubes or transistors and a few ICs) was that complicated. To me all it took was a little common sense.

[crokett]

In my previous job we had to hand-solder leads down to boards so we could connect signals analysis tools. As these things go this was probably pretty simple, or at least the EE with 30yrs experience made it look simple. I practiced with wire scraps and a dead card, but even now it is not my favorite thing to do.

[LCHIEN]

We are definitely on an Apple/Orange discussion here.


Hand soldering was the subject.

i think the apples oranges comparison is more like cutting a steak to brain surgery. Simple hand soldering of old electronics and of connections on the output side of boards designed for hand connection are like cutting a steak, anyone with a little skill - a few minutes training - can work on it. Changing internal parts on modern boards can be more like brain surgery. Very delicate and requiring precision and special tools.

[cgallery]

I'm designing some boards which have literally hundreds of lead free solder ball connections hidden beneath a device measuring 13x13mm to 21x21 mm.

I hate BGA's.

Back in shop class in 8th grade, we learned to make good mechanical connections between (for example) a wire and a terminal. You'd (perhaps) tin the wire, wrap it around the terminal, and then apply solder.

Then you move onto simple PCB's with conventional components. The through-holes were plated and you often didn't have any sort of mechanical connection, but the solder worked.

Then surface mount. Okay, no through holes and the components themselves are just held in place with solder.

Now we have BGA's. Hundreds of tiny solder balls that you can't see w/o inspection equipment. No mechanical connection between the component and the PCB. Tiny dot of solder.

So what happens when BGA-equipped motherboards are installed in portable computers? People carry the machines around, the motherboards flex, and those solder joints break. Now you either have to send them out to be re-worked, or you can try one of the at-home solutions (heat gun works for me about 80% of the time).

HP has had several machines that just freeze during the post or boot. Pressing on the area between the keyboard and the trackpad (basically this is applying pressure to the top of the BGA) unfreezes them.

Apple has had at least one model with thermal issues. The video chip (another BGA) goes through extreme enough thermal cycles that the joints break.

At least I'm starting to see signs that notebook designers are getting hip to the problem. They're beginning to make the area of the boards that carry a BGA "float" inside the machine, so flexing the chassis doesn't torque the board.

Somehow I still don't think my 8th grade shop teacher would approve.

[pierhogunn2]

I hate BGA's.

Back in shop class in 8th grade, we learned to make good mechanical connections between (for example) a wire and a terminal. You'd (perhaps) tin the wire, wrap it around the terminal, and then apply solder.

Then you move onto simple PCB's with conventional components. The through-holes were plated and you often didn't have any sort of mechanical connection, but the solder worked.

Then surface mount. Okay, no through holes and the components themselves are just held in place with solder.

Now we have BGA's. Hundreds of tiny solder balls that you can't see w/o inspection equipment. No mechanical connection between the component and the PCB. Tiny dot of solder.

So what happens when BGA-equipped motherboards are installed in portable computers? People carry the machines around, the motherboards flex, and those solder joints break. Now you either have to send them out to be re-worked, or you can try one of the at-home solutions (heat gun works for me about 80% of the time).

HP has had several machines that just freeze during the post or boot. Pressing on the area between the keyboard and the trackpad (basically this is applying pressure to the top of the BGA) unfreezes them.

Apple has had at least one model with thermal issues. The video chip (another BGA) goes through extreme enough thermal cycles that the joints break.

At least I'm starting to see signs that notebook designers are getting hip to the problem. They're beginning to make the area of the boards that carry a BGA "float" inside the machine, so flexing the chassis doesn't torque the board.

Somehow I still don't think my 8th grade shop teacher would approve.

can you detail how that heat gun thing works? I have a hpdv9000 where the video chip doesn't work properly, and it was killed by a heat issue, which I am betting $ to doughnuts is just this bga separation nonsense...

or at least point me at some knoweldgeable articles about it

[cgallery]

can you detail how that heat gun thing works? I have a hpdv9000 where the video chip doesn't work properly, and it was killed by a heat issue, which I am betting $ to doughnuts is just this bga separation nonsense...

or at least point me at some knoweldgeable articles about it

Just google "hp dv9000 bga" and you'll find plenty.

[Mr__Bill]

I had not realized that there was a direct correlation between stupid and soldering. Unless of course we are talking a bout psychokinesis soldering techniques.

As to the original question of why are people so stupid. It is, in my opinion because they want to be. It's easier.


Bill
now experimenting with subatomic particle accelerator soldering techniques as amplified with psychokinesis.

[pierhogunn2]

I had not realized that there was a direct correlation between stupid and soldering. Unless of course we are talking a bout psychokinesis soldering techniques.

As to the original question of why are people so stupid. It is, in my opinion because they want to be. It's easier.


Bill
now experimenting with subatomic particle accelerator soldering techniques as amplified with psychokinesis.

so I guess the largest take away from this is that people are really just more lazy than they are stupid, or is being lazy, just plain stupid?

[leehljp]

so I guess the largest take away from this is that people are really just more lazy than they are stupid, or is being lazy, just plain stupid?

There seems to be a strong correlation for sure!