Website Placement Question

**Hellrazor** · 10-12-2008, 10:24 AM

$$ donation to a search engine

**dlminehart** · 10-12-2008, 10:34 AM

Your question is about Search Engine Optimization, or SEO. A specialized field these days. I subscribe to an email newsletter put out by a woman who, like others, makes her living consulting on this very issue. Try googling on SEO or the full title.

There are a couple obvious basics, like having a <keywords> tag in your <head> tag that includes not just "custom cabinetry" but related concepts ("cabinetwork", "South Florida", "S. Florida", etc.). And having content good enough that the site gets links from other sites. (Some folks do exchange deals, "I'll link to you if you link to me.")

Beyond these, it gets trickier, and becomes an interesting study in the co-evolution of search engine algorithms and search engine optimization specialists. The algorithms are proprietary, but can be deduced by clever optimizers. So, the algorithms are then tweaked to not be suckered in by the optimizers, and on it goes.

Or, like Mike says, you just pony up the cash. That's how google makes its money, after all. They have a variety of plans, from showing up on the right side of the window regardless of what search you make ("Buy your toilet plunger at Target"), to showing up at the top of the more focussed list of targets (i.e., first of the cabinet makers). In most of these, you also pay per click on the listed link. So, some folks try to increase their competitors' costs by setting up scripts that automatically click away on their competitor's google links. And google has specialists in detecting this pattern, so they don't overbill their customers. A weird and cutthroat world, cyberspace!

**LCHIEN** · 10-12-2008, 11:21 AM

I like to think I know how to search for things using search engines. Many people however do not.

Things you as a user can do:
Look at the number of hits. If its 3 million or so or a really large number you have to either use what the search engine pushes at you first (best hit meaning that they either have that sit on its favored status (paid) or the keywords are close together and they have the most matching terms of any.
The other choice is to narrow the search by specifying mroe keywords, for custom cabinetry I'd also specify a location and specific furniture I was looking for e.g. custom cabinetry Florida hardwoods for example.

It's not liekly that you will pay the engines a lot of moey to give you favored status over the other 3 million sites, but You as a website owner can do some things to make more keywords work for you. Matching words in your web home page help those extended matches. On the HTML main page for your site there is a non-displaying command that you can list keywords to help search engines. So either in your text or in the keywords section you need to put words that will match search requests. THings like location... South Florida, So Florida, Miami, etc (other close cities) and the kinds of wood you work with and the specific kinds of cabinetry you do (kitchen, built in bookcases) etc. and every permutation of names and abbreviations for the cabinet items.

**onedash** · 10-12-2008, 08:56 PM

popularity is also a big one...if you have a lot of people clicking the link it will move up. and as mentioned lots of links to your site....

**jackellis** · 10-12-2008, 09:23 PM

If I was looking for custom cabinets for our retirement home at Lake Tahoe, I'd do the following searches:

cabinets Lake Tahoe
custom cabinets Lake Tahoe

I might also search for them in Truckee, Reno and Auburn, all of of which are relatively close.

I get 132,000 hits but on the first page, there's a list of ten local businesses, four of which have web sites. If I'm smart enough to search via the web, then I'm going to favor businesses that have web sites where I can peruse samples.

This is one site that seems to be a local company rather than a franchise or an outlet for a large firm: http://www.millerscustomcabinets.com/kitchens.shtml

Here's another one: http://www.uniquedesigncabinetco.com/index.php

I don't know whether you ever advertised before but web sites are essentially advertisements and you'll want to figure out what to say based on attributes of custom cabinetry in general and your work in particular that matter to customers.

I think, though, that word-of-mouth advertising is going to be much more effective than a web site or print ads.

Are you thinking of coming out of retirement, or just curious about how the search engines work?

**dkerfoot** · 10-13-2008, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by cabinetman

Lets say I wanted to have my own website offering custom cabin work. I "Googled" "Custom Cabinetry" and it shows there are 3,710,000 results. Personally, I have never scrolled more than 15 - 20 pages at the most to find anything. So my question is how do websites get positioned like in the first 5 pages or so? I sure wouldn't my site to be the 3,709,999th one.
.

The challenge of course is that there are nearly 4 million other people who want to raise their results too!

The short answer to getting top results is to have other very popular websites all provide links to your site. But again, 4 million other cabinet makers all want the same thing.

Google does provide some local tools that allow you to show up on the map for local searches.

**cabinetman** · 10-13-2008, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by dkerfoot

The challenge of course is that there are nearly 4 million other people who want to raise their results too!

The short answer to getting top results is to have other very popular websites all provide links to your site. But again, 4 million other cabinet makers all want the same thing.

Google does provide some local tools that allow you to show up on the map for local searches.

With all the advice so far, and being very informative puts into perspective the nature of the product. If I was trying to sell custom kitchen cabinets, it seems that a local market would be the intended market. With what's involved in that type of work wouldn't lend itself to great geographical variables. If I'm in Florida, and someone in California wants a custom kitchen, the distance alone would be prohibitive.

What has happened without a website there seems to be a need for consultation services. For the few years I've been on forums, I've received many requests from both shop owners and individuals that either joined or lurked long enough to find answers. I enjoy the interaction in forums, and fortunately, have developed some ongoing clients that produce me an income, and I don't have to build anything. From most of the consulting services I've looked into, some are local, and most are affiliated with their own products.

What I'm considering is a website that would explain services, fees and how documents are exchanged through email and snail mail. I don't think it would have to be an elaborate site, just an informative format. I don't use a CAD program (yet), and drawings and suggestions are scanned and included with a text explanation. So, having the site show in the first few pages of whatever searchable subject would be important. There's likely some free websites, or minimum cost sites like 1 & 1, or Go Daddy that aren't costly. One of our members, AusRob suggested WebCeo. I may look into that possibility. It's hard to decide.
.

**RAFlorida** · 10-13-2008, 08:23 AM

Cabinetman, I've found that some of the threads

listed here in BT3Central show up in the Google search pages, some time with in the fifth spot. I just did a Google search for one of the reviews that pacwind3 did, for the DP 121L and it showed his post/thread. So in my thinking, if you list your business in a BT3C thread header it just might place you website in the first page. Might just be worth an experment to see.

**LCHIEN** · 10-13-2008, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by RAFlorida

listed here in BT3Central show up in the Google search pages, some time with in the fifth spot. I just did a Google search for one of the reviews that pacwind3 did, for the DP 121L and it showed his post/thread. So in my thinking, if you list your business in a BT3C thread header it just might place you website in the first page. Might just be worth an experment to see.
[ATTACH]11452[/ATTACH]

They show up because there's not 3 million pages that mention the DP121L... there's only 677 hits on the whole web.

they show up 5th because they mention the model number more than once AND they are in English (US originated searches on Google rate English-language websites higher)... your example contains a high relevance of BT3central.

**Alex Franke** · 10-13-2008, 08:57 AM

I'm usually in the top 2 or 3 for my keywords, and I've never paid a cent to Google for positioning. The trick is to have quality, informative content -- e.g. write up a couple of helpful, objective tutorials or other articles like "How to Pick a Custom Cabinet Shop". Link out to other high quality and applicable sites, and try to get other reputable sites to link to yours.

Include your keywords in your content, but don't make it look like you're trying to include your keywords in your content. E.g. if you're trying to get hits on "custom cabinets" then don't say something like "My custom cabinet shop makes custom cabinets for those looking for not just custom cabinets, but for fine custom cabinets that outlast the custom cabinets of other custom cabinet makers."

Then wait. ...and wait. The longer you are a trusted content provider, and the longer you have trusted content providers link to you, the better your ranking will be.

**dkerfoot** · 10-14-2008, 05:11 AM

I have seen a couple of references to buying positioning on Google. FWIW, you can buy ads that run at the top or side of Google searches, but you can not buy better positioning of the regular Google Links.

**dlminehart** · 10-14-2008, 08:50 AM

From the Google "AdWords" section, explaining costs of the program that puts your business one-liner link on the right side of the google search results:

Concerned about costs? Don't worry—AdWords puts you in complete control of your spending.
Set your budget
There's no minimum spending requirement--the amount you pay for AdWords is up to you. You can, for instance, set a daily budget of five dollars and a maximum cost of ten cents for each click on your ad.

Avoid guesswork
We provide keyword traffic and cost estimates so you can make informed decisions about choosing keywords and maximizing your budget. (Estimate keyword costs)

Pay only for results
You're charged only if someone clicks your ad, not when your ad is displayed.

**poolhound** · 10-14-2008, 08:51 AM

CabMan, You are heading down the right road here. For any local business you are unlikely to attract potential customers from outside of a predefined radius. As you focus in closer and closer on your target demographic the numbers get much smaller. If you search for "custom cabinets florida" you get 574K hits if you replace Florida with say, Jacksonville you are now down to approx 300K. If you add a specific zip code tghe search hits would be down in the few thousand.

You mentioned that there "seems to be a need for consultation services." I know you meant this in terms of WWing but thats exactly what I do related to marketing and business. I work with clients on everything from their high level business strategy to specific campaigns, website implementation and SEO. Here are some things are can tell you, feel free to take them or leave them.

1. There is no magic fairy dust!! anybody tells you that they have a secret to marketing and especially SEO is full of it!! There are certain basic fundementals any business needs to have in place and then its hard work just like anything else. As far as SEO goes the techniques to improve position are well known and just take time, expertise and money the same as most other things including WW

2. As others have said you can use various tools from google and pay money to get on the top or rightside sponsored bars. This is actually not that expensive and can realy help if done well.
3. The main search results page is all "natural" results - you can not pay (google) to improve your position only somebody who can help you with your SEO.
4. Do find somebody you can take advice from that can help you build a marketing strategy that works for you and a website that makes sense.
5. Beware companies that want to charge you a monthly for creating and hosting your site. This can seem cheaper than having it built separately but it usually costs more e.g. a typical small site could cost $750-$1500. If you buy your own domain name and get a simple hosting plan that might be $6/mnth- total cost $1716 after 3 years. If you use somebody who charges a mnthly fee I have seen people paying $80/mnth or more. That would be 2880 after 3 years. I am not saying these folks are bad, simply that you should do your research first and know what you are getting into.

Bottom line is get yourself a website and go for it. You can do it realatively cheaply if you do it all yourself. It can still look good but it might not bring you the business you desire. If you want it to look proffesional and to drive people to you then you will need to pay - how much is up to you.

Have fun

Originally posted by cabinetman

With all the advice so far, and being very informative puts into perspective the nature of the product. If I was trying to sell custom kitchen cabinets, it seems that a local market would be the intended market. With what's involved in that type of work wouldn't lend itself to great geographical variables. If I'm in Florida, and someone in California wants a custom kitchen, the distance alone would be prohibitive.

What has happened without a website there seems to be a need for consultation services. For the few years I've been on forums, I've received many requests from both shop owners and individuals that either joined or lurked long enough to find answers. I enjoy the interaction in forums, and fortunately, have developed some ongoing clients that produce me an income, and I don't have to build anything. From most of the consulting services I've looked into, some are local, and most are affiliated with their own products.

What I'm considering is a website that would explain services, fees and how documents are exchanged through email and snail mail. I don't think it would have to be an elaborate site, just an informative format. I don't use a CAD program (yet), and drawings and suggestions are scanned and included with a text explanation. So, having the site show in the first few pages of whatever searchable subject would be important. There's likely some free websites, or minimum cost sites like 1 & 1, or Go Daddy that aren't costly. One of our members, AusRob suggested WebCeo. I may look into that possibility. It's hard to decide.
.

Website Placement Question

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