Sad vs. tragic

[germdoc]

Recent articles have brought up a pet peeve of mine: inappropriate use of "tragic" or "tragedy" to describe a sad event. Namely, the diagnosis of a really famous person with a terminal illness, like Patrick Swayze, is sad, but it's not tragic.

Tragic implies something someone brought on himself through a result of his own arrogance (or hubris, to use the Greek term). Napolean's downfall was tragic. Howard Hughes crazy end was tragic. (The younger a person is the more likely a loss is to be called a "tragedy", but again, an accident is generally not tragic--foolish or a bad mistake maybe.)

Anyway, this kind of dovetails into another topic, which is the comment people make "if only he/she could have lived a little longer". In most cases this is not a thoughtful idea. To use one example: Mozart died at 29, if he had lived another 20 years would he have been as famous or influential as he is now? If John Kennedy had survived his assassin's bullet--would he be remembered as a great man or a mediocre president? What if Marilyn Monroe had not died at age 36? She'd be 82 now--hardly an icon or sex symbol.

Just a few musings on a slow day in the office...

[LCHIEN]

one thing about mozart - he was truly prolific for his years, I don't think anyone touches him for sheer volume of works let alone the number of significant, even great works. Had he lived another 20 years he would be like hank aaron with 2500 career home runs. He's already like Hank Aaron with 1500 home runs - untouchable for 3 centuries now. (steroids or none)

Sorry about the off topic.
Dictionary.com def of tragic:

1.characteristic or suggestive of tragedy: tragic solemnity. 2.extremely mournful, melancholy, or pathetic: a tragic plight. 3.dreadful, calamitous, disastrous, or fatal: a tragic event. 4.of, pertaining to, characterized by, or of the nature of tragedy: the tragic drama. 5.acting in or writing tragedy: a tragic actor; a tragic poet. 6.the tragic, the element or quality of tragedy in literature, art, drama, etc.: lives that had never known anything but the tragic.

Dictionary.com def of tragedy:

1.a dramatic composition, often in verse, dealing with a serious or somber theme, typically that of a great person destined through a flaw of character or conflict with some overpowering force, as fate or society, to downfall or destruction. 2.the branch of the drama that is concerned with this form of composition. 3.the art and theory of writing and producing tragedies. 4.any literary composition, as a novel, dealing with a somber theme carried to a tragic conclusion. 5.the tragic element of drama, of literature generally, or of life. 6.a lamentable, dreadful, or fatal event or affair; calamity; disaster: the tragedy of war.

Your interpretation of Tragedy cincides with Tragedy def 1. Which I will agree with is the classical, scholarly version. In that some character flaw causes this tragedy.

Most of the other definitions refer back to tragedy as such as like def 6, a lamentable, dreadful or fatal event or affair has now come to be associated with a tragedy, many use it without the character flaw connotation, simply something somber or sad.

Would a kennedy's dying or death be a tragedy were they not famous and some had dies so young? Is their character flaw simply that they are human?

Lets start a letter writing campaign and say what a tragedy it is that the English language has come to this.

[just started]

1. John Jr's plane crash was his own fault due to stupidity. He never should have taken off due to not being current, nor being qualified for the weather conditions.

2. Teddy = karma.

3. This thread has what to do with woodworking? And yes, I'm at fault too for responding.

[jonmulzer]

1 & 2: You don't like the Kennedy's, that's fine. Comments like that though start to border on politics.

3: This is the Coffee Pot. We can talk about whatever we wish in here. Not just woodworking.

[JR]

3: This is the Coffee Pot. We can talk about whatever we wish in here. Not just woodworking.

Except politics. And religion.

JR

[paintandbodtman]

tragedy vs sad

If you forget about what definitions imply and look at todays society and how we have evolved IMHO the difference in the two is how sheltered a life you have lived in todays society. What's tragic to one is only sad to someone else due to their life exsperinces and vice-versa.

Wayne

[docrowan]

I believe that Loring's definition number 1 of tragedy relates back to Ancient Greek literature and particularly drama. In Greek tragedies (Oedipus Rex being one of the most familiar), the more the "tragic" hero struggled to avoid his fate, the more he brought himself closer to it. If I recall my college days correctly, it was more or less wrapped up into their view of history as being circular, rather than our modern view of history being linear. I believe also that Greek tragedies could only occur to rulers and royal families.

We owe the ancient Greeks a great deal, but we tend to forget that much of their thought would seem alien to the modern man. I believe this may be part of why the English word tragic for most people has slid into simply meaning very, very sad.

[Bruce Cohen]

Hey guys,

Lighten up, I guess we'll all have to use dead Greeks to avoid pissing someone off.

Bruce

[cabinetman]

Hey guys,

Lighten up, I guess we'll all have to use dead Greeks to avoid pissing someone off.

Bruce

You tell 'em Bruce.
.

[stormdog74]

I don't know if it is a new trend or something that has always gone on, but we seem to exaggerate many experiences today. How many football players refer to a game being war? This doesn't really bother me too much as I realize that no one takes these phrases literally, which brings up my pet peeve - does it seem like people are using "literally" far too much now? Phrases like "I am literally going to die if I don't get that job" - that kind of thing really annoys me!

Anyway, this kind of dovetails into another topic, which is the comment people make "if only he/she could have lived a little longer". In most cases this is not a thoughtful idea. To use one example: Mozart died at 29, if he had lived another 20 years would he have been as famous or influential as he is now? If John Kennedy had survived his assassin's bullet--would he be remembered as a great man or a mediocre president? What if Marilyn Monroe had not died at age 36? She'd be 82 now--hardly an icon or sex symbol.

I suppose this depends on whom we are talking about - Bob Dylan released three masterpieces before almost dying in a motorcycle accident in 1967. He would be a James Dean type icon had he died. Since he did live, he has released a number of albums considered brilliant, including his last three.

Then there are those who write one great novel and then nothing else worthwhile - I guess the thing is for those who die we will never know, which leads to the speculation.

[pierhogunn]

so as a society is it sad or tragic that as adults we must refrain from discussing religion and or politics here because of the painful and personal lessons learned in other venues?

I would have imagined that a group as respectul and familial as this one would raise and not lower the level of discourse on two of the phillosophical underpinnings of our society, and culture.


But then again, we are human, and our nature is at least well enough understood as to support the wisdom of our fair moderators, and other forum watchers to keep the forbidden discourses from creeping up here like so many brambles that are better left elsewhere

[Uncle Cracker]

It's not up to us what the rules are on this here site, because we don't own it. The guy who does makes the rules, and that's that.

As for the definitions, they are often given to colloquialism and individual interpretation, and are usually broad enough that many views can be defended, so there is little point in splitting hairs.

As for the pet peeves, they are really an individual manifestation, and there are hundreds who use the site, so speaking only for myself, I try to set an good example by not letting them get under my skin, and not criticizing those whose individual thoughts might differ from mine. Life's too short to blow a gasket over it.

[just started]

1 & 2: You don't like the Kennedy's, that's fine. Comments like that though start to border on politics.

3: This is the Coffee Pot. We can talk about whatever we wish in here. Not just woodworking.

Has nothing to do with politics or how I feel about them. It is a fact that as a pilot he was not current, he had not flown and performed 3 night take-offs and landings in the last 30 days due to his leg having been in a cast until the day before, and he was not licensed for IFR flight but was heading into IFR weather conditions. Teddy was involved in the death of 2 women.

[crokett]

And here I though this was going to be a lawyer joke.

My definition of sad is something that is either a) a major event that is expected (the death of a loved one after an illness) or b) an unexpected minor event.

Tragic is an unexpected major event - the loss of a child. The the world it may be sad, to the parents it is tragic. And like most else, what matters is what the beholder sees.

[germdoc]

I scrubbed original post to remove any potentially controversial material.

Interestingly word "tragedy" comes from the Greek words for "goat song". Quite a way to describe it.

Personally I think the term should be used only for cases where a) the person is a victim of his own faults, or b) there is overwhelming loss, such as the sinking of the Titanic.

JMO Crocker, but if someone dies unexpectedly it's really really sad, but I wouldn't call it tragic. My opinions are colored by the fact that my father died a decade ago at age 60, and my daughter almost died of cancer at age 2. I wouldn't call either of these events tragedies because to me that implies that somehow they were at fault (although in my father's case he died of smoking-related causes, which while sad and unfortunate does not quite rise to the level of tragic).

Now don't get me started on the misuse of "ironic"...