Another wood shop program bites the dust

[ryanps]

You guys should check-out the book "Made in America" (believe that is the title) by John Ratzenberger (not sure if that is spelled correctly). He is the actor from Cheers. He is a huge proponent of Americans actually learning a trade and how to do things and he bemoans the fact that we are quickly erasing our manufacturing know-how.

I recently saw a chart comparing American college graduates to that of South Korea. While we were off the charts with lawers they were off the charts with Engineers.

[cgallery]

Don't worry - they're doing just fine on your account. They're collecting more than the 2% from most of the merchants who accepted your card.

I don't think the card issuer gets transactional fees, I believe those fees are paid to (and kept by) the merchant's processing company. The "discount" fee is basically a loan, as the merchant gets paid within 1-3 (typically) days of a card being run/settled, but the processing company doesn't get their $$$ for 5-60 days.

That is why card issuers refer to people that pay their monthly balance as "deadbeats." If you have a zero-fee card and pay your balance every month, they don't make money on you.

Some cards with cash back deals actually don't cost your card issuer, but the merchant. Those cards have a higher discount and the difference gets kicked back to the card issuer. But I don't believe there is any profit there for them. If there is, it is extremely nominal.

There have been reports of some deadbeat accounts being closed by the card issuer, but that is rare as deadbeat accounts are valued the same as other accounts for the purposes of a selloff of a CC division.

Plus they're always hoping that someone will go a little overboard and need to stretch payments a little, or pay late (the late fees are BIG money makers).

[jonmulzer]

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/bank/19990122.asp

It won't be long before they weed you out.

[BobSch]

I recently saw a chart comparing American college graduates to that of South Korea. While we were off the charts with lawers they were off the charts with Engineers.

And as the quote goes, “A careful study of history will show that no nation has ever sued itself to greatness.”

As far as shop classes go, I graduated in '65 and remember Metal Shop, Wood Shop and Printing in Junior High and three years of Electronics in HS.

Unfortunately, the one class I now wish I'd taken is Typing (As some of my posts show...)

[LCHIEN]

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/bank/19990122.asp

It won't be long before they weed you out.

ohhh, that sounds bad... the good news is the article is 8 years old and hasn't happened - yet.

even tho i pay off my cc every month the bank likes me anyway, i have money in my checking acct they only pay me a pittance of interest.

[germdoc]

The older I get the more I want to "think with my hands" instead of just using my gray matter.

I think the relevant quote here is from Heinlein: "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

Really, I think I can do most of these, except maybe the last one.

My kids all had shop class in middle school. They have other talents, like being able to hook up a network, wire a sound system, pimp a Myspace page, hoard small change until they have enough to buy a video game, etc. I don't know if they could or would butcher a hog.

Here's an interesting article on shop class, which is a little high-falutin' but food for thought nonetheless:

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/public...s-as-soulcraft

[BobSch]

I'm probably going to collect a lot of flames for this...

Lately I've started thinking the decline in Industrial Arts is associated with parents (and through osmosis, the kids) thinking that, since their offspring are all going to be college-educated adults, they won't have any need for any mechanical skills — they'll be making so much money that they will be able to hire some menial to do all their grunt work.

('Scuse me while I change into my Nomex underware.)

[gsmittle]

Elimination of what I would call life experience classes(art, music, shop) in schools has been accompanied by "teacher days" crowding the schedule.

At this point I will stop because I might start mentioning performance review, which would be political.

Warning: Rant ahead.

There's tons of research showing that students taking art classes (by that I mean fine and practical arts) tend to do better in math, science, social studies, etc. Unfortunately it's very hard to reduce art to a single standardized number, hence no test, hence cutting the classes to make room for "teaching to the test" in other subject areas.

Agreed, in my district at least, there are far too many "professional development" days. Most fall on a Friday, which means the students get deconditioned to being in school for five days, hence rampant absenteeism on Fridays when we do have school. The Monday following, too. Consequences for absenteeism are non-existent. Wonder what kind of message that sends?

Further, the "professional development" usually falls into a couple types of days: the "we're not teaching enough math and science" days and the "we must treat every student as an individual" days. We know this already.

Don't get me started on NCLB.

End of rant.

My district still has wood and metal shop. At least for now.

g.

[smorris]

I'll start by saying I grew up on a fruit farm. We learned early on to fix most anything, weld, maintain engines and rebuild them during the winter, fix a blender, construct a building, etc. My friends find it amazing that I have no qualms about tearing something down from a toaster to an engine to fix it. Most of them hire it done and have no idea how anything in their homes works.

One of my boys at the age of 20 has suddenly realized that it is much cheaper and satisfying to do his own maintenance and is always after me to show him how to for example, change the shocks on his truck. He's learning, just costs some skin is all.

[germdoc]

Bob I think you're about half right--I think parents, me included, are so focused on wanting to get the requirements (math, science, English, etc.) accomplished that we don't give as much weight to the non-requirements. I would propose that we make industrial arts a requirement to get into college or go to tech school or even get a job in a factory and then the value would rise.

The other factor is simply money. As someone who's very involved in my kids' public schools, I know almost all the teachers, principals, etc. They're *almost* all sincere, hard-working folks who want the best for our kids. They have to navigate through the thicket of requirements and competing expectations, as school budgets get tighter and tighter.

[JR]

Unfortunately it's very hard to reduce art to a single standardized number, hence no test, hence cutting the classes to make room for "teaching to the test" in other subject areas.

Speaking of "teaching to the test"...

California now has standardized testing, as do most states, AFAIK. I frequently see commentary from educators lamenting that all they do is teach to the test. Unfortunately, most of this commentary tends to run along the lines that the commentator, as a professional educator, knows way more than the lay person can, so no detailed discussion will be forthcoming. Sigh.

When these standardized tests were first proposed I was enthusiastic. I, like many others, was dismayed that young people couldn't make change, right a report, file alphabetically, or do other skills which are normal in the workplace. Standardized tests, in my mind, would solve that. It never occured to me that the curriculum would be limited to the three Rs, only that for sure those basics would be taught.

gsmittle, as an educator, can you tell the me the rational arguments against standardized testing and the impact "on the ground" of their having been implemented? Without those tests how do we assure our young people are at least getting the basics? Why do teachers feel hamstrung by this? Why does standardized testing inhibit teaching beyond the test?

JR

[Kristofor]

Speaking of "teaching to the test"...

California now has standardized testing, as do most states, AFAIK. I frequently see commentary from educators lamenting that all they do is teach to the test. Unfortunately, most of this commentary tends to run along the lines that the commentator, as a professional educator, knows way more than the lay person can, so no detailed discussion will be forthcoming. Sigh.

JR

Something I've noticed is that no matter what the profession is, when people or systems are evaluated against any type of specific metric there is generally a fair amount of resistance. There are certainly some good reasons for this since generally the things being measured aren't the only things people care about, and the ancillary items may suffer at the expense of the measured ones...

With that said, until there's some better way to at least semi-objectively evaluate systems something needs to be selected as a measurec. You could (and many places do) pick graduation rates, but some argue that it's much easier to graduate from some schools than others. You could pick the percentage of students who go on to college, but then poorer areas would likely have a lower percentage of people going that route even with the same academic ability, and so on.

Teaching to the test is a side effect of people hearing stories about high school graduates not being able to find the USA on an unmarked globe or add a couple 4 digit numbers. I wouldn't claim that the cure is definitively better than the disease in this case, but I can see why people would say that the status quo wasn't good enough and that it would be worthwhile to start trying different approaches.

[cwithboat]

heard on cable news

MN where this thread originated is voting today (or tomorrow) on reducing the school week to 4 days.

[Kristofor]

Well, maybe some school board is voting, but the legislature adjourned on-time today as required by our state constitution so nothing on a statewide basis. Not a huge amount of education impact in this year's session. Some tweaks, and a small one time ~1% bonus to the per-pupil funding formula.

There have been districts particularly in the out-state areas that have gone to 4 longer days to cut down on bus trips by 20% and heating/cooling by some similar number. I haven't seen any recent stories about this, but it's one that's rolled out every time the price of gasoline or natural gas prices take a bump up.

Kristofor.

[jziegler]

Speaking of "teaching to the test"...

gsmittle, as an educator, can you tell the me the rational arguments against standardized testing and the impact "on the ground" of their having been implemented? Without those tests how do we assure our young people are at least getting the basics? Why do teachers feel hamstrung by this? Why does standardized testing inhibit teaching beyond the test?

JR

I'm not gsmittle or an educator myself, but I have many family members who are (my sister teaches high school chemistry and physics, my mom is retiring in a few weeks from about 20 years teaching kindergarten special needs, and other time teaching other elementary or special needs classes) . So, I have had many conversations about this and have a good feeling for some of the problems.

The tests themselves are not the problem. Standardized tests have been around a long time. I was taking them in elementary school in the early eighties. What is new is the "high-stakes" testing.If you don't pass THIS test, you don't graduate from school. If your school doesn't see an improvement each year, your school is failing and looses money. So, if you are already a high performing school/district (like where my mom works) you have to work even harder to show that improvement (probably already the high 90's are passing there) or the school is "failing". There is no special exemption for special needs students, they are required to take the same tests and perform to the same standards as other students (although they get one exception that I have heard of, they get unlimited time to take the test rather than it being timed). So, an autistic or down's syndrome child must perform as well as everyone else, but their mental development is far behind other children. It's a one-size-fits-all mentality that doesn't really work.

Because of how important the government has made these tests, the teachers are required to do everything that they can to improve the test results. But, the tests don't do much more than test test-taking skills. When do you ever need to do large amounts of math (like large multiplication or lo9ng division) without a calculator or with a strict time limit in your daily life? How about filling in other people's sentences? Picking a synonym from a list? These are the types of things on the tests that I took. When you teach this type of stuff, there is less time (especially for basic skills students) for anything else, including skills that might be more useful for daily life.

Sorry for the rant, but I really see the education system in this country going downhill fast, and all of this testing doesn't help. We need to do something, I don't know what, but something needs to change. I think getting rid of shop is a bad choice, I really think that more students should be following a vocational path. At least a quarter of high school students should probably be doing a vocational program in one form or another (probably most not going to college should). As an engineer, I see on a daily basis the need for highly trained technicians that a good vocational program can put people on the path towards.

Jim