Auto gas mileage

[JSUPreston]

Using info available to me on the web, it looks like the wife's '04 Kia Sedona gets 14 city/21 highway, with my '00 Nissan Frontier getting 14/18.

I've been toying with the idea of something like a 250CC motorcycle for most of my commuting with the truck. I typically drive about 10 miles a day, unless I run an errand, etc. So, usually 50 to 70 miles a week in the truck. Means that I use 4 to 5 gallons a week, with a fill up about every 3 weeks. The van gets driven more, but still averaging less than 8,000 miles per year. Even buying a cheap bike, with helmet and insurance, would take quite a while to recoup costs. Granted, it would probably be better environmentally. But, my wife would turn gray really fast given the way people drive around here. There's a reason why my boss, who rides, calls his helmet a brain bucket.

I am seriously considering a crew cab F150 for my next vehicle (2010). Boys will be getting bigger, hopefully I will be in the shop more, and they get better mileage than either of our current vehicles.

In my situation, we would have to do a lot more driving to recoup our costs on a new vehicle basing it mileage. However, we will definately look into (especially for the wife) better mileage car/van when it is time to replace the Sedona.

[pierhogunn]

the Hybrid I want is an all electric Hybrid, with a supplimental diesel gen set that is tuned to run at the most efficient rpm/load possible to recharge the batteries / capacitors, and something that when at home, can be plugged into a wall or something, and maybe, just maybe solar cells on the hood, rood, and trunk...

[Anna]

I also wonder why diesel cars, which can get excellent mileage, are not being sold much here in the US. I saw a comparison between a 5 series BMW diesel and a much smaller hybrid (I think it was the prius) and the diesel had better fuel economy.

Emissions killed diesel in the US, and for some time it was almost impossible to get a diesel car in California. The newer diesel cars have improved emissions and are once again available here.

My husband drives a Mercedes Benz diesel that gets 45 mpg on the highway. It was great and made sense when diesel cost 30% less than gasoline. He still wouldn't give it up even though diesel now costs more than gas. We've been talking about getting him a new car, and we'll probably end up with another German diesel with Bluetec technology.

As for motorcycles, he's adamantly against it. I wanted to buy one, but he firmly said no. When you're used to your husband giving in all the time, it actually really counts when he finally refuses.

[Tom Slick]

I haven't seen hybrid numbers that impress me, yet. pay a premium for a vehicle that returns the same numbers as economy cars from 20 years ago or diesel cars now. When they can return their peak efficiency numbers on a routine basis I might consider one.

It's hard to recoup the costs of a motorcycle for commuting, you have to ride for the enjoyment. tires for a bike run $65-150 each, they last maybe 3000 miles, they require more maintenance, and many bikes are ready for a rebuild by 30-50k miles. you also need to invest in a good helmet and gear to be safer (another $1000), still never as safe as the least safe car on the road.

If you buy a 250cc bike you cannot safely or comfortably ride it on the highway/freeway but it will be great for riding around town.

[milanuk]

Interesting... I had no idea that bike tires were so short lived. Are those performace tires, or general purpose cruising tires?

I traded in my '01 Camry and '96 F-250 7.3L Powerstroke on a '05 Tundra Doublecab late last fall... for a variety of reasons I still need a truck, and the F-250 had about 228k on it, i.e. soon to be in need of some major repairs, probably more than the vehicle would be worth. For some reason I thought the Tundras got better mileage than they do (must have looked at the Tacoma reviews or something). Otherwise I'm reasonably pleased with the vehicle but at 17.5mph on the highway, and 13-15 in town and gas prices going up faster than my income (way faster), I'm starting to think about alternatives. I really don't want another vehicle taking up space in the driveway or on the street, not even a compact car. Reducing the combined maintenance and insurance costs was part of the logic driving the move to one vehicle per person.

If the local bus system ('Link Transit') went anywhere near where I worked, at anywhere near when I need to be there or come home, I'd use that in a heart beat. Unfortunately, working rotating 12hr shifts @ a hydro dam... there ain't exactly a bus stop outside the gate, if ya know what I mean (something about keeping the unwashed masses at bay ). As such... I've been thinking about possibly a dual-sport bike (for other purposes, like meandering around the mountain roads where bouncing around the cab of a truck, even a civilized one, ain't much fun) or a small cruiser. Between weather and whatnot, I'd probably only be able to ride it 5-6 months out of the year (beyond that, I'd need heated underoos to stretch it to 8-9 months). I'd have to pencil out to where the break even point is - but with gas prices going up the way they are, something is gonna have to give.

Monte

[kirkroy]

I've never gotten less than 8k miles out of tires on my bikes and that's for DOT racing tires (metz rennsports). Most track tires I use I get 10-12k miles out of. I can get more mileage than that out of sport touring tires but they're no fun.

I know a guy who has put hundreds of thousands of miles on Ninja 250s, with most of those being highway miles. He's even used them to compete in ironbutt rallies (ironbutt.com) and he places well.

[mpc]

Look at the weight of those cars of 15-20 years ago that got spectacular fuel mileage... compared to today's cars. That's why you see 40+ MPG years ago in small cars but only in hybrids or specialty cars today: the safety regs out there have added several hundred pounds to the weight of every car. My 78 Corolla weighs about 2200 lbs; current Corollas are 2800+ lbs. Extra airbags and side impact beams in the doors add a fair bit of weight. Folks have come to expect better/fancier interiors too - with more sound deadening material- and that also adds weight. One has to go to the Yaris to get to a 2200-2300 lb car; that has less interior space than my old Corolla. (though it is taller)

Diesels get good MPG from two factors:
* high compression compared to gas engines. As compression ratio goes up, engine efficiency goes up (though not linearly). Gas engine compression ratio is limited by fuel octane to around 11:1; many diesels are 15:1 or even higher.

* most diesels are long-stroke designs: the piston moves up/down a long distance compared to the diameter of the piston/cylinder (long stroke for a given bore). That is great for torque (imagine those old hand drills... a long stroke is like a hand drill with a handle waaayy offset from the drill bit axis) but not so good for high-RPM running and horsepower. For steady-state driving though you aren't using max HP; that huge torque lets the car maker spec transmission and rear axle gear ratios to keep the engine at lower RPMs where friction is less of an issue. Friction losses build up as the engine turns faster so a low RPM diesel wastes less energy as friction heat. Consider this: on a typical gas engine car, 1/3rd of the gas energy goes to the wheels, about 1/3rd is dumped/wasted as heat in the radiator, and about 1/3rd is wasted as heat in the exhaust. The long stroke and slow RPMs of a typical diesel give the engine more time to extract heat energy turning it into usable torque.

When gas (or diesel) is burned, one of the exhaust products is NO2... and when hot, a couple NO2 molecules tend to break down into NO & O2 molecules. NO (nitrogen oxides) are one of the nasty smog particles and NO emissions limits were the killer issue for diesels. Compression ignition means a very hot initial burn ==> lots of NO formation. That's finally been overcome and we'll start seeing diesels again as Anna noted. Actually, NO emissions limit pretty much any gas or diesel engine: the point of "burning fuel" is to create heat to make air expand and push against a piston, right? So more heat ==> more power typically. Well, the upper limit to temperature is the LOWEST of several quantities:
* what the engine materials can survive without melting/damage
* exhaust temps that lead to NO formation
* the max temp theoretically possible when burning whatever fuel you have.
Given the materials technology today, it's the NO formation temps that limit how "hot" the combustion process can be. If that emissions limit were less restrictive we'd see higher MPG cars.

Hybrids typically do get better in-town MPG than on the highway. For regular cars, every time you accelerate from a stop you're using a lot more fuel than you'd use maintaining a constant speed. And when you slow down all that kinetic energy in your moving vehicle becomes wasted heat in the brake rotors/drums. Hybrids recapture a lot of that energy (regenerative braking ==> recharges the batteries) and then use it to help you re-accelerate later which is how they get such good in-town MPG ratings. At steady speeds for a long time, hybrids and regular engines will get about the same overall mileage: it's based on the energy needed to move the vehicle through air and rolling resistance. For short durations, the hybrid might do the job on electric power only so you'd get great MPG... but stay at 30 miles per hour for an hour or two and you'll see the gas engine kick ON to recharge the batteries and move the vehicle too... at that point, it's a regular car basically. At highway speeds, for long drives, the gas engine does almost all the work because there just isn't enough battery capacity to drive you very far. So on the highway a hybrid acts like a regular car.

Many hybrids still do achieve better MPG on the highway than a regular engined car... but that's not so much because of "hybrid" technology as it is other things in the car are optimized for low drag: skinny/hard tires with less rolling resistance, better aerodynamics, etc. Many folks that have purchased hybrids have been willing to give up some of those extra interior/exterior niceties that add a lot of weight too.

mpc

p.s. another car topic... I can't keep my mouth shut.

[JimD]

I used to ride motorcycles, I put about 50,000 miles on them in my younger years, and I do not remember any 3K tire replacements. They may require replacement as fast as a bad front wheel drive car but I don't think they're much worse. You also only have 2.

Highway comfort is also not a reason for me not to ride. If you do not want to get beat up by wind you need a fairing but you can add one to many motorocycles, not just the real big ones. Any bike 125cc or bigger should be able to keep up with highway traffic. The little ones just spin huge rpm to do it. Gas mileage seems to be ~40 mpg for 600 cc and up. You may be able to get 60-70 if you drop down to 250 cc or below. I never rode below 350cc on the street. My 350 Yamaha 2 stroke was one of the quickest bikes I rode but only when things were just right. My 450 Honda was a better long distance bike. My buddies 900 Kawasaki was a beast. The very limited time I've spent on 2 cylinder big bikes does not make me want to use them for a long trip but I've not been on the new ones with water cooling.

The big reason I do not continue to ride bikes is safety. I have good peripheral vision and can assume every car I meet will do the stupidest possible thing so I am still alive. I was run off the road many times, however, by 4 wheeled vehicles that "did not see me". I do no think there is a way around this, some people in cars just do not pay attention to 2 wheeled vehicles and pull right out in front of you. If you have nowhere to go.....

It only takes a few minutes with a spreadsheet to see if a change in vehicles can make economic sense. Usually it doesn't. While gas is annoyingly expensive, the difference we can actually make usually amounts to a few hundred dollars per year. All you need to do is divide you miles per year by the mileage you think you can get for each vehicle, determine the gallons difference, and multiply that times the assumed gas price.

Jim

[DaveS]

It's hard to recoup the costs of a motorcycle for commuting, you have to ride for the enjoyment. tires for a bike run $65-150 each, they last maybe 3000 miles

I used to get about 10 mpg on my bike, and I rarely got more than 1000 miles out of the back tire...

of course, most of my mileage was put on 1/4 of a mile at a time...

[RickD1]

Honda Insight

I got lucky and saw the hand writing on the wall when gas prices were still below $2.00 per gallon. I have consistantly gotten between 50 and 60 miles per gallon in my Insight. I have a 42 mile one way commute and drive between 65 and 75. My best milage for a single trip was 80 MPG. This little car does very good on the high way, so so in town. I was able to get a tax credit and an HOV sticker. Can't begin to tell you how much money this decission has saved me. Of course, on the flip side, when I first bought it I did get a lot of ribbing. I've now got close to 100,000 miles on it and hope to have it for another 100,000 miles.

[dick541]

Sorry all of you I have 2 Prius's, got #1 Jan. 04 it has 91500 miles now. Never got less than 49.8 mpg ever. Have driven to PA,and NJ several times (450 miles ) and allway's get at least 54-55 mpg Rain or shine. Wife uses it mostly driving around Raligh NC. getting about 54mpg. The 07 I drive now average 350 miles per week 20 miles each way to work and then to the lake on the weekend I average 56-57. I have gotten 62mpg to the lake several times. That's at 60-65 mph.
You have a learning curve with a hybrid and if you let the car train you how to do it.
I will never have a car that gets less than 45mpg.

As for all the people that THINK thay NEED a pickup truck, My uncle had a dariy farm for 40 years with 36 milkers and 20-25 calves and raisie 4 kids and never had a pickup, and never needed one. only had a station wagon.
dick

[bigangelman]

We comparison shopped between the new small cars and the prius. It was almost 10k more than the Nissan versa we decide to get. Sure we only get 35 mpg but we have a nicely equiped comfortable car. We did get the CVT transmission which was a very good choice, smooth as silk veryfew parts to wear out. Some of the thing I have learned about the Prius is that the brakes last forever, you only use them to stop the last few feet. The tires needed for them are suppose to be expensive, low rolling resistance. In comparision both the Versa & Prius pressing on the sheet metal, it flexs very easy and is much thinner than just a few years back. Yes it woud be nice to get the Prius mileage but at what cost? I forget what the numbers came out to be but is was way beyond 100k miles before the Prius cost evened out to the Versa's lower mpg.

Tom

[leehljp]

LOML and I average 30,000 miles a year together when in the States, (and close to that here in Japan). We have done this for years. Based on that, our simple formula for helping to decide how much we want to get an efficient vehicle versus a good used vehicle at less milage is this:

30,000 miles per year.

30,000 / 50 mpg = 600 gal X $3 = $1800; or X $4 = $2400

30,000 / 30 mpg = 1000 gal X $3 = $3000; or X $4 = $4000

30,000 / 25 mpg = 1200 gal X $3 = $3600; or X $4 = $4800

We actually used that formula when gas jumped from 40 cents to 60 cents for a while in the mid to late 70's. Is there a decisive economically feasible advantage in going for the more efficient and more expensive vehicle versus the less expensive and less milage car? We consider this. When it is a matter of $200 a month, then we let that decide heavily.

But we also will look at - how long will it take to re-coop $12,000 in additional costs in differences in vehicles. (3 to 4 years)

How long will it take to recover $20,000 difference in buying a good used vehicle at $8,000 - $10,000 @ 25 mpg versus new gas efficient at $28,000 - $32,000 @ 50MPG (5 to 6 years)

Next:
How long do we hold on to a vehicle on average?
How much will be lost/retained in resale/trade in value? This part does not influence me as much as it does some people. We are used to having a vehicle for 5 to 7 years or more before trading or getting a new one.

LOML and I are still looking down the road at retirement in 3 years and the vehicle for our main travel is to be considered. This helps us decide which way we want to go. MPG is not the "decider" itself, but will weigh heavily in the decision.

[MilDoc]

LOML wants a mid-size car. She's taking a new job that is 25 miles from here, at least 20 miles at 70MPH x 2.

Oil hit > $122 a barrel today. I expect gas prices wil soon be in the $4-5 a gallon range, especially if the dollar keeps depreciating.

So, she's decided to look at the Prius this weekend. Seems like most folks on the net get 45-48 MPG no matter where they drive, and it is mid-size.

Looks pretty good to me, plus a $700+ tax credit for purchase.

Anyone have one?

Any other options to suggest?

[jziegler]

LOML wants a mid-size car. She's taking a new job that is 25 miles from here, at least 20 miles at 70MPH x 2.

Oil hit > $122 a barrel today. I expect gas prices wil soon be in the $4-5 a gallon range, especially if the dollar keeps depreciating.

So, she's decided to look at the Prius this weekend. Seems like most folks on the net get 45-48 MPG no matter where they drive, and it is mid-size.

Looks pretty good to me, plus a $700+ tax credit for purchase.

Anyone have one?

Any other options to suggest?

Well, I don't have a Prius, I rented one (almost a two week rental, so I got a good feel for it). It handles well, and had plenty of power for me. Mileage was good. It was comfortable. Visibility is not great. Good cargo space. It was fine for four adults on an almost two week vacation with luggage.

For other options, you can get hybrid Camrys, Accords, and Altimas now. Some of the compact cars get excellent gas mileage now and can be pretty nice, plus bigger than a few years ago. The Corolla, Civic, Sentra and others are no longer tiny econoboxes, and are just a little smaller than some mid sized cars of ten years ago. They might be worth at least a quick look.

Jim