Advice on used car maintenance cost

[krogers]

Okay, so this is not directly a woodworking question, but it is wood related. Related because this is the vehicle that I haul wood in. Recognizing that this is not a car forum, but I do know that a lot of you have knowledge in this area and I respect your opinions. How much should I spend to maintain a used car? At what point do you give up on a car as being too expensive to maintain? I have a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo. I bought it new in October of 2000. It currently has 88,000 miles. I have kept up service and maintenance. Generally it has been a trouble free car. Lately however, the repair/maintenance bills have been rising. In the last twelve months I have spent about $3600 on the car. Std items like brakes, rotors, differential maintenance, etc. Plus two not so standard items, like a hub bearing and the third starter (2nd replacement) for the car. Any thoughts or experience you are willing to share?

FYI - This is my 5th Jeep that I have had experience with. But the first one that I have kept this long and am considering keeping much longer. The idea is that this would become my Home Depot/weekend car. It won't log a lot of miles and won't be a daily driver.

[Wandere]

Starting to have the same concern with my 1994 4Runner with 250k...exhaust finally giving out.

Fiscally: if it's paid for....once the repairs exceed the payments on a replacement vehicle, it makes sense to dump it.

It's 2008, it better be paid for by now

That price tag sounds like you may be having a dealer do the work (ouch), turning a wrench for things like brakes isn't tough and saves a TON of money in the long run.

my $0.02

-Rob

[LCHIEN]

modern cars it seems should last 120K miles without too many major repairs.
If at 88K miles 7 years old its costing more than $3600 per year that's pretty steep.
The hope is that this year is an abberation and things will be cheaper next year. The pessimist view is that things are bad and will continue to get worse.
Take a good look at the blue book value edmunds says $5000-6000.
Good luck with your decision.

[Black wallnut]

All those items listed are normal maintenance items in my book for a four wheel drive. Although third starter in 88K raises my eyebrow! The price you are paying for maintenance also raises an eyebrow.

On the bright side you should not have to replace the brakes again, if the starter goes out again there is something else wrong or you are getting bad parts. When you replaced the hub bearing did you replace all on one axle end? Wheel bearings should receive annual maintenance unless they are a sealed unit.

[jgrobler]

I look at it this way: When the payments I'll make on a replacement car significantly exceeds the maintenance cost on my otherwise paid-in-full car, I'll keep the car.

I have a '98 suburban, on the third fuel pump, and now in need of front suspension do-over at $1100. The car is probably 6k-8k on KBB, but if I replace it with any car that I can't buy outright, I'll likely have payments for a few years that will exceed the average $600 annual maintenance costs, with a larger bill every 3 to 4 years.

Also have a '90 Celica, with 171000 miles, going strong after I had the engine mounts replaced, and still need to fix the transmission (stickshift second gear not smooth) but otherwise doing very well, and I'll keep it for many more years.

In a different thread I mentioned I was looking for a replacement car for my wife, to replace the Kia Spectra that I never should have bought - piece of junk - but I'm trying to do that without incurring another monthly payment, so I'm looking for cheaper cars.

I forgot where, but in the last week or two I saw an article of a guy that had his Chevy truck for 1,000,000 miles. So it's possible even for the American brands to go the distance.

The regular maintenance is very important in keeping the cars that long.

[JSUPreston]

Yeah, I got sucked into the "high maintenance" thing several years ago. My opinion is that unless the annual maintenance CONSISTENLY exceeds what you would pay annually for a newer car, and if the car is still meeting your needs, keep the car.

My wife had a '95 Saturn SL (not SL1 or 2, the BASE SL!!!) when we got married. The only options the car had were A/C and a tape deck. We traded the car for a truck for me about 5 years ago, using the argument that it was expensive to maintain. We were paying maybe $800-$1200 a year to maintain it. Hind sight being 20/20, it would've been cheaper to keep the car. However, since it was a stick and since I've had 3 surgeries on my left knee, the car wasn't meeting our needs, so that is why we are still able to justify getting rid of it.

I had a '92 Dakota Extended Cab (paid cash) that I bought after my '92 S-10 (that we got when we got rid of the Saturn) was totalled by an @$% on the freeway with no insurance. I had the truck a little over a year when I noticed it was burning a little oil. I probably loosened a "sludge seal" when I changed from dino oil to synthetic on the previous oil change. So, the wife and I justified trading it in on the Nissan Crew Cab I have now. Two reasons why I have a truck: 1. I like them. 2. I do haul stuff on occasion. However, instead of trading in the Dakota, I should've kept it for hauling and gotten a small 4 door for most of my driving.

So, now I have 2 car payments, a minivan that we have 2 years left on, and we plan on driving at least 5 years after pay off, and my truck which has 2 1/2 years on it.

So, after my long winded conversation, I think you really should keep the Jeep, as long as it is meeting your needs. Only you know for sure about that, and only you know how it has been treated while you've owned it.

[Alex Franke]

A lot of that $3600 shouldn't happen every year if it's for the types of things you said. So maybe next year it'll be $500 or so. Even if it's $1-2K, that's still probably cheaper than buying a new car.

I would avoid using the cost of a *new* car payment as a comparison because a new car payment implies that you've incurred a new debt, so you're sort of comparing apples to oranges in a way. Plus there will still be some maintenance expenses that go along with it.

If it's a big repair (mechanical or otherwise) and it's not typical maintenance, then I usually look at the purchase cost of an equivalent car, because you can make the argument, "For this cost, I could get a different car that doesn't have the problem I'm trying to fix."

Otherwise I'd just drive it until it dies, so long as most of the cost is simply anticipated maintenance-related (e.g. brakes, battery, tires, etc). You should be able to get at least 20k more miles out of it...

Unless you have some extra money to blow outside of the workshop, I'd probably wait until my needs actually *require* a different car (e.g. it can't haul what you need to be able to haul, your family had gotten to big for it, it's not reliable enough to make your wife feel "safe", etc.)

[LCHIEN]

there's other ways of looking at this:
for $5K of trade in value and avoiding $800-3600 year repairs and maint and another $100 in regitration fees and inspection costs and the hassle of maintaining a old vehicle
1. you could buy a small folding trailer that takes a lot less room and won't break down.
2. you could rent a truck at lowes or HD for $20 for 75 mins. Once a week for two years is $2080 rental.

[krogers]

More information

Thanks for all of the reply and advice. Maybe some more information would help. The jeep was the primary family car for the last seven years. We had only one car. I walk to the train for my commute, so second car wasn't necessary. Due to age and reliability of '01 Jeep, the wife just got a brand new minivan. I had hoped to keep the jeep around as a weekend/work/wood hauler. As some have mentioned I was hoping to drive it until it dies. I will only put another 3k-5k miles a year on this car. So I am hoping is has another 20 or 25 thousand miles to go, without a lot of expense. To Lorings point, I could sell the jeep and use truck and car rentals. But that is what I have been doing up to this point. Or we just share the jeep when needed. I just have gotten tired of the rental process and how much time it takes. So recognizing that having a second car is a luxury item I was prepared to pay a little extra for it. I was just wondering if I am holding onto a vehicle that is going to cost "too much" to maintain. To answer some of the other questions, yes the car meets my needs. It is big enough to haul what I want. And it will get me to the airport for business when I need to. Since I have always owned the car I know the repair history, so that is a big plus.

Mark, you correctly guessed that all of my repair is done at a Chrysler dealer. That may not be necessary any more. Given the age and no more warranty. I am thinking about servicing the new van at the dealer, and switching the jeep to a local garage. That may save some $. Next up I am about due for another set of tires. So I wanted to be sure I was going to keep the car before that investment.

[JSUPreston]

I know others will probably agree with me when I say this: Find yourself a reputable garage in the area and use them as exclusively as possible. You'll build up a relationship with the folks working on your car, and they'll eventually get to know your car better than you do.

We've got a local garage that I take stuff to on occasion. We haven't had to have anything done by them in a while, but I am constantly recommending them because they've done quality work at a fair price for me in the past.

[Wandere]

KRogers?...as in Kenny Rogers? We have a celebrity on the board!

Dealer only for warranty work...they are referred to as "stealers" for a reason. They'll make plenty of money off of the warranty work.

I second or third the independent garage route...use angie's list to find a reputable one or ask friends you trust.

labor rates might be half the dealers. parts costs may be lower as well, it really adds up to a lot over the years and the end result is typically the same....a defective widget gets replaced and tested....but you spend less.

-R

[docrowan]

Plus one on finding a reputable mechanic in your area. A difficult task, but one worth spending time and unfortunately dollars on. Getting recommendations is okay, but don't count on getting good information. I've found most recommendations from friends and family aren't worth much. I've had to send work out to several shops until I finally found a good mechanic. Cheap isn't the only consideration. Four questions in descending order of importance to me are:

1) Can he reliably and confidently fix it?
2) Does he stick to his estimate or quote?
3) Can he consistently get you into his shop in a reasonable time?
4) Is he cheaper than the dealer?

Final thought. Purchase a subscription to Consumer Reports and use their website to guide you in used car purchases. We ignored that to our utter dismay.

[krogers]

Sorry. Not Kenny Rogers. Just Kevin.

I have had two recommendations for a local garage/mechanic. So I am seriously considering that route. I haven't had any complaints about the service from the dealer other than price. Especially labor. The dealer service is open until midnight. So I did a lot of my maintenance after work hours. The local garage is just a mile or so away and right near a train station. So if that works out as a reputable garage, then I will be in great shape. Now having two cars, and not needing it to commute, I can just drop one off at the garage.

[jseklund]

Ok, this is my investment-book-reading side speaking: A car is a liability. In other words, it costs you money! An asset will make you money. It's just a means to an end, and no matter what- a car will cost you money.

As such, I have to agree with most people who responded- you have to compare which way is cheapest (cheapest isn't always money-related).

I currently have a 2003 that I have put 170,000 miles on. I plan on going to 300K. So far, I have put about 7,500 in repairs (including a transmission rebuild at 150K miles). Most of these repairs have been tires, brakes, oil changes, air filters, etc. I have replaced a wheel hub, had the catalytic converter replaced at about 130K, etc. I do MOST of the repairs myself, which has kept the costs down considerably (money-wise, not time-wise). I like working on my car so sometimes I spend a little more time than it's worth...but I also like that I know how the job was done, and that it was done the way I wanted (or even done at all). At this mileage, I've done a lot of the major repairs and estimate that I'll spend another $5K to get to 300K miles. It's a nice car, and due to maintanence it is reliable- for $12K in repairs I will get 300K. Add to that the 21K in sunk cost to buy the car and I am in for 33K.

On the other hand, I could have replaced the car with 120K miles on it (after I had spend probably 3,000 in repairs already on tires, brakes, etc), bought another car, and gone another 120K on that. At that point, I'd have $6,000 in repairs, and two car purchases - which could easily be $20K each. And I'd still have 60,000 miles to go before I hit 300,000.

I know I'm long-winded, but long story short- barring catastrophic repairs, it's almost always cheaper to put new parts in and repair the car than to buy a new (to you) car.

However, as others have said, your repair bills do seem high. You may want to look into why, and maybe find a new mechanic...

[JimD]

We currently have an '06, a 2000 and a 1995. I haven't spent that much on all of them combined. My 2006 should be reliable and is but it replaced a 1997 I gave my son. It has not required $3600 maintenance total (it's a Suzuki Sidekick 4 door). I do little stuff, oil changes, brakes hoses, accessory belts, myself. That and batteries are all the 1997 has had. I've put a starter and several batteries in the 1995 and I also had the camshaft belt replaced (the 1997 has a chain). The starter failed because oil was leaking on it from the oil filter. Tightening it tighter helped and I will throughly clean off the mounting surface next time I change it. My wifes 2000 Mazda 626 has been the worst but not really so bad. We had the camshaft belt replaced for about $800 and the clutch for about the same amount. It keeps throwing a code indicating it needs a catalytic converter. It has 84K miles. I am not anxious to buy another Mazda but this is not really that bad. I almost never take a car to the dealer, even when it is under warranty. The only time my 2006 Suzuki Grand Vitara has been back to the dealer is for a recall and a couple early issues. All maintenance (oil changes) has been by me.

I think the bottom line is it is almost always cheaper to keep an old car than get something else. Another test not discussed is when the repair cost is more than the vehicle is worth. We can't reasonably put an engine or even new transmission in our 1995, for instance, because it would cost close to or more than it's worth. It is also more expensive to keep an old car than to sell it. Sitting for long periods is hard on the engine, all the oil drains out and it starts relatively dry, so it's best to drive it at least once a week. It's also easy for the battery to get run down.

You're going to have to decide how much you want the second vehicle. I do not look at it as a big luxury (I have 3 but one is for my daughter) but you also have to consider taxes and insurance costs.

Jim