Tool Snobs?

[cabinetman]

When we lived in Edgewood, New Mexico the LOML and I had a house built on our site by an excellent carpenter who had worked for us previously on a smaller project. He was self-employed and had no trouble finding jobs. One of his memorable statements was "Why buy an expensive tool when a cheap one will do?" Indeed, why buy that $2000 (or whatever it is that they cost) Powermatic when a BT3100 will cut wood just as well? Whenever I buy a tool I can hear that carpenter's question in my mind and I am usually guided thereby. That's why I have a number of Ryobi tools in the wood shop. They are cheap (meaning inexpensive) and effective. I guess maybe this is a form of reverse tool snobbery. Whatever gets the job done. You should derive your reputation by the work you produce, not the cost of your tools.

Very well said. Tool snobbery may be mistaken for an over exuberance about a certain tool. When discussing tools, the members of this forum exhibit extensive information about brands of tools and certain variations of a type of tool. This explanation of the differences may be construed as an "elitist", or "snobbish gloat", but in reality, our members are not professional tool reviewers, and may unintentionally come across that way.

In the depth of these tool talks, very important details are brought out by those that use the tools that can be constructive in making tool decisions. So, for any discussion about which tool is best and which tool is junk, think back just over 150-200 years ago and more. There was some fine masterpieces created with some prety rough tools.
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[Knottscott]

I visit a lot of sites, and think that this one is the warmest and most welcoming. It could stem from the comarodery of BT owners... dunno, don't care, but do enjoy it...

[LarryG]

My tools don't sit so I can talk about them on a web site.. they work blue-collar daily to earn their justification of price and being there to begin with . There is a difference in snobbery and appreciation of a tool.

Very nicely put, Sarge. That sums up my tools' "lives," and my relationship with them, perfectly.

For some people, a tool is, quite literally, nothing more than that: a tool. A means to an end; a way to get to the desired destination of completed project; a necessary evil, almost. For others, a tool is something more. An experience unto itself; a partner in the creative journey; a delight just to be in the same room with, and to have the privilege of using.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with either viewpoint. It's a simple function of different people being wired differently. It's a case of what matters greatly to one person not mattering at all to someone else -- and vice-versa.

It is those who refuse to acknowledge that such differences exist who are the real snobs.

[Uncle Cracker]

Ditto what you said, Larry. The ultimate high for me is to get both a quality tool and a great price. Win/Win...

[SARGE..g-47]

Very nicely put, Sarge. That sums up my tools' "lives," and my relationship with them, perfectly.

It is those who refuse to acknowledge that such differences exist who are the real snobs.

And well said on your part and worth repeating. What I have now in both size and quality has come in the last 5 years after my mortgage was paid off. The smaller, cheaper tools got replaced one by one with justification of it's purchase and I am very proud to have my current capability.

But... that is not to say that a project cannot be completed with anything other than a quality brand X tool. It most definitely can and will continue to be as it has been for 5000 years. You can put a very high quality tool into the hands of the clueless and accomplish nothing as he did not bother to learn the fundamentals and the greatest tool in the world won't change that.

You can put the crudest tool in the hands of a "craftsman" and he will find a way to make it work to his advantage and get the job done. But if you put a quality tool in the hands of a craftman.. will he or she produce a finer result?

I don't think that would be the case... I simply believe he will just produce it faster and with less in-conveince of fiddling. And for someone that can do it regardless of what he has to work with... that person has a deep understanding of what a quality tool is capable of and appreciates that advantage when he has the opportunity to use it.

[coach]

I too went to the dark side a couple of years ago, but my needs were different and it wasn't feasible to expect the bt3100 to compare with a saw that retailed for almost 10X the price. However, the BT3, and now the sears, are among the first tools I suggest to my buddies who want to make small projects and DIY repairs. I usually get the "but you don't have one" response. I remind them that I did have one for about a year with fine service.

Which takes me to the point of tool snobbery. I hope I'm not afflicted, but I have spent more money replacing cheap tools than I would have spent getting it right the first time. A lot of the cheap tools I replaced were Harbor Freight. Some of the other tools were Ryobi. However, when cash was short and the need was there, it was better to have a cheap tool than no tool.

I won't tell you that my tools are better than anyone else's, just because that is what I bought and like. You can be sure though, I have done my research and bought the tool that best fit MY needs and budget. That doesn't equate to those tools being the most expensive, or even the most popular.

[LinuxRandal]

To some extent, I think we cam all be seen at some time tool Snobs, and for my part, I apologize. We base our opinions, on what our experiences are, and at times, while we may be trying to help make recommendations, we come across as Snobs. Unintentional, but happens.

Then there is another class that is, my tools are better because they cost more. I've seen this with wrenching (Snap~on verses Mac, etc....) and tablesaws (don't waste your time get a ..........)
Several of you know my first saw was a Delta contractor, earned from a neighbor who needed a bunch of work done, It was left over there, and lost in a fire. I intermitently tried the benchtops saws, I warn people against (my snobbery), and bought a BT (fits my space and budget). I also ended up with the EZ smart system, which has taken over and works FOR ME, others choose Festool, Sawstop, etc and it works for them. That is the point and budgets, that everyone has to deal with themselves.

I have several friends who have more talent, then I will probably ever have. One used an older circular saw inverted into a tablesaw housing, to build lot's of things, that I am still trying to achieve that quality (he is a natural with talent). Seeing what he did with that old of system (1950's?), is part of what made me try the EZ more (and it works for me). Granted I still look for cast iron (keep missing them on CL due to my hours), but I don't really have the space or needs, yet.

Yet when I was first trying to get things in order, I had heard about using carpet tubes, as dust collection tubes. Since I had access to a carpet store and tubes (works shopping center), free, I asked on another forum.....
After being laughed nearly out of there, they wouldn't respond with what or why to use.

[JR]

You can put the crudest tool in the hands of a "craftsman" and he will find a way to make it work to his advantage and get the job done. But if you put a quality tool in the hands of a craftman.. will he or she produce a finer result?

You didn't mention what happens when a clueless woodworker has crude tools.

Welcome to JR's shop!!

JR

[SARGE..g-47]

You didn't mention what happens when a clueless woodworker has crude tools.

Welcome to JR's shop!!

JR

As with the journey that most of us has traveled J R, with much effort the clueless starts to fade and as the funds and justification become a reality, so do the crude tools.

Interestingly enough, I just sold a Lie Neilson Dove-tail saw that was given as a gift 2 years ago. And I am facing 120 tails and 120 pins to cut in the coming week or so. Why did I sell it?

Because the $20 saw I have been using for 20 years or better is a perfect partner in my hand. Therefore the LN sat in a drawer never used. I have the same Stanley low angle block plane I bought over 30 years ago and I use a block plane 2-3 times a week at minimum. Could I afford a LN or LV at this stage. Yep.. but it is not justified as the old Stanley has been picking em up and laying em down and will continue to do so for years to come.

And.. I don't believe for one minute you're clueless except as the rest of us.. when it comes to out-smarting the young ladies we married. Then.. we are all Clue-less with a capital "C".

[BobSch]

I've always thought that tool quality affects work speed more than controlling the quality of the end result. A sloppy worker is going to turn out junk no matter how good their tools, whereas a craftsman can produce a masterpiece using junk, good tools simply make it easier and faster to finish a project.

[drumpriest]

Well, I am a tool snob, always have been. It is not based on price though, it's about functionality and safety. To me, a tool that does the job, and helps keep my fingers intact, is a great tool, regardless of price.

That's why when I upgrades table saws, I refused to get one that had LESS safety features than my BT3100. Sadly I had to buy a 2000+$ Powermatic to get a similar set of features. Having said that, and owning both, the BT3100 does NOT cut as well as the PM2000, if it did, I would not have gotten a PM2000. Certainly a 3100 will do what most people want from a table saw, and do it well. But start ripping 3" thick hardwoods, and you'll see the difference.

I am proud of the bt3100, I think there is no better table saw for the money, and I'm sad that it's been discontinued. I certainly argued with friends about buying a contractor saw for twice as much money that didn't perforrm as well. So I'm a tool snob.

[bluzcat]

I read with great interest everyones comments on my original post. The shear volume of responses indicates how much everyone likes this website. I have enjoyed woodworking since junior high. I was 25 before I bought my first table saw (craftsman benchtop). Over the years, as my skill increased, I was able to justify increasing my budget for my hobby. The one common denominator with my purchases is a good price. On sale, clearence items, used, whatever. Not the cheapest tool, just the best bargain for a quality tool. I probably would not have bought a cabinet saw as soon as did if Amazon hadn't dropped the price as much as they did. The Bargain Alerts page here has produced an amazing number of killer deals. As far as my OP is concerned, I firmly believe that this site will continue to prosper, due the large number of members that are truly good people. Woodworking hobbiests in general, IMHO, are some of the most stand-up people to be associated with. I spend more time at this site than any other, by far. Maybe I was reading between the lines of some posts and making something out of nothing. I guess I could take my own advice and ignore posts that bother me. I just sometimes feel bad for the O.P.'er. My Mama always said "If you can't something nice, don't say anything at all". Now I would add constructive as well as nice, but you get the idea.

Some of the comments have given me an idea for a new post: What was the last tool you paid full price for? Mine was a Ridgid ROS.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I don't think that there would be much argument that Cheeky and I are one and two in bargains. We are bargain hounds. However I also know that like myself Cheeky is able to see value above bargains. I am not a snob but I buy good tools. I like to get them at the best possible value. I like to sell, trade, swap and otherwise get the best deal possible. That is fun to me. But at the end of the day I have a shop full of wonderful quality tools that I paid next to nothing for due to selling, reselling and finding great deals. I accept the fact that there are some tools that you can't get good deals on such as the Festool Domino. If Porter Cable made a Domino type tool that was half the price and of as good quality as their 557 BJ, then yes I would have a PC instead of Domino. There is no way I would by a Festool Jigsaw over a Bosch 1590. I own a lot of big tools. 19" BS, Unisaw with 50" rails, Cyclone, 24" dual drum sander, 60" edge sander, molder, etc. But I practically stole most of these. I bought a Jet contractor TS for $150 sold, it for $600 when I bought a 22124 for $400. Through trades, deals, etc I now have a Unisaw X5 that I basically paid $150 for. I have a shop full of Bessey Kbodies that I paid nothing for since I bought a BUNCH of them for a good deal on Amazon and sold a bunch on Amazon thus resulting in no money out of pocket. I would consider a SawStop. I see value in the saw, but I would have to get around some of the shipping, tax, etc. If I could find a $3000 SS it would be in my shop.
I am a wood snob. I love wood. I love highly figured wood. I love planing it. I have a huge smile when I wipe a coat of finish across some crazy figured maple for the first time. I LOVE WOOD. I get good deals on wood but I buy a lot of it at a time. I have friends that deal in wood. They know I will pick up a bunch of wood if they need to move it. I use a lot of wood. I build big projects.
Here is the thing. I USE my tools. A lot. I LOVE building stuff. I love giving gifts that make people cry. I love going to my sisters house and seeing an incredible piece of furniture that I built.
I see a lot of people on this site that are really, really cheap. They don't see value in certain things. They don't use their tools. They don't contribute with quality posts nor do they make financial contributions to the site. They complain all the time. It seems to be happening more and more. There is a lot of new folks with confrontational attitudes. That is really not needed. We have a great family here but I think it is slipping. I have a hard time seeing the difference in BT3 and other sites sometimes. This makes me sad, but it is what it is. That is the direction we are going in.

I love my tools. I love my stacks of wood. I love the time I spent with my kids making little treasure chests in the shop this afternoon. I love it when my kids say "My Daddy can make anything". I love it when my 5 year old tells me how Norm made something. If all this makes me a tool snob, then I am a tool snob.

[Crash2510]

I don't think that there would be much argument that Cheeky and I are one and two in bargains. We are bargain hounds. However I also know that like myself Cheeky is able to see value above bargains. I am not a snob but I buy good tools. I like to get them at the best possible value. I like to sell, trade, swap and otherwise get the best deal possible. That is fun to me. But at the end of the day I have a shop full of wonderful quality tools that I paid next to nothing for due to selling, reselling and finding great deals. I accept the fact that there are some tools that you can't get good deals on such as the Festool Domino. If Porter Cable made a Domino type tool that was half the price and of as good quality as their 557 BJ, then yes I would have a PC instead of Domino. There is no way I would by a Festool Jigsaw over a Bosch 1590. I own a lot of big tools. 19" BS, Unisaw with 50" rails, Cyclone, 24" dual drum sander, 60" edge sander, molder, etc. But I practically stole most of these. I bought a Jet contractor TS for $150 sold, it for $600 when I bought a 22124 for $400. Through trades, deals, etc I now have a Unisaw X5 that I basically paid $150 for. I have a shop full of Bessey Kbodies that I paid nothing for since I bought a BUNCH of them for a good deal on Amazon and sold a bunch on Amazon thus resulting in no money out of pocket. I would consider a SawStop. I see value in the saw, but I would have to get around some of the shipping, tax, etc. If I could find a $3000 SS it would be in my shop.
I am a wood snob. I love wood. I love highly figured wood. I love planing it. I have a huge smile when I wipe a coat of finish across some crazy figured maple for the first time. I LOVE WOOD. I get good deals on wood but I buy a lot of it at a time. I have friends that deal in wood. They know I will pick up a bunch of wood if they need to move it. I use a lot of wood. I build big projects.
Here is the thing. I USE my tools. A lot. I LOVE building stuff. I love giving gifts that make people cry. I love going to my sisters house and seeing an incredible piece of furniture that I built.
I see a lot of people on this site that are really, really cheap. They don't see value in certain things. They don't use their tools. They don't contribute with quality posts nor do they make financial contributions to the site. They complain all the time. It seems to be happening more and more. There is a lot of new folks with confrontational attitudes. That is really not needed. We have a great family here but I think it is slipping. I have a hard time seeing the difference in BT3 and other sites sometimes. This makes me sad, but it is what it is. That is the direction we are going in.

I love my tools. I love my stacks of wood. I love the time I spent with my kids making little treasure chests in the shop this afternoon. I love it when my kids say "My Daddy can make anything". I love it when my 5 year old tells me how Norm made something. If all this makes me a tool snob, then I am a tool snob.

jeffery I am in complete agreement with you I really love tools and am always stiving to get better higher quality ones
I think that some many members of this sight are very protective of their tools and do not need someone to tell them when their tools are a joke or not up to industrial standards unless they ask for opinions thankfully this does not happen often

I have seen too many beautiful finished projects on this site made by tools that aren't always highly regarded elsewhere (ie BT3100) yet they are great nonetheless

I owe many of my tool purchase to you (if i can say that)
thankfully I get to use most of my tools every day and love trying to share what little knowledge I have gained in my short number of years

I will donate to this site this year as I did last, but I could never give enough to pay for all the knowledge I have gained from you loring and other on this site

maybe tool snob was a wrong choice of words by the op because we are all tool snobs but nobody likes to be persecuted for using a different bit blade or tool as long as it works for them and creates the great projects I have seen

really hope this site doesn't lose its family feel that makes it the best on the net

I really wanted to say this

by the way bluzcat I haven't paid full price for a tool since I joined this site(thanks jeff, cheeky, others)

[coach]

........................

Some of the comments have given me an idea for a new post: What was the last tool you paid full price for? Mine was a Ridgid ROS.

That brings me to a point that I didn't mention in my earlier post. The only tools I can ever remember paying retail for was the BT3100 (I parted it out for a handsome profit), a JET mini lathe, and my JET DC and air filter. I guess the next closest would be my Bosch routers that I bought when Lowe's was having a 20% off sale. Other than that, everything I own was either used or heavily discounted.

Not to gloat, but here is a quick list of my major tools and what I had to invest in them.

1996 Powermatic 66 = I've got about $300 after parting the BT3100 and a couple other swaps.
1938 Delta 10" band saw = $125 from the original owners son
1947 Delta/Milwaukee 14" band saw = $125 from the same gentleman as the 10"
1970 Delta 10" Turret RAS = I don't really have any money in this, except a new table and blade.
1966 Powermatic 1150 drill press = I paid the asking $200 and ran.
Craftsman 22401 14" band saw = Remember when Sears had these for $319???
Bosch 6pc 18v kit = $250 on Home Depot closeout. I bought six and sold 5 on ebay = much profit.
And my list goes on and on.

The way I see it, this is a hobby for me. I make my living developing young people. Therefore, I can't afford the luxury of assuming a tool will pay for itself. No, I have to pay for it and be able to justify it's place in my small shop. I really try to warn people against paying retail for most anything, unless you're earning a living and need that tool to keep the funds coming in.