The Mitchell report

[Ed62]

Do you think it will do any good, or is there too much money to be made by too many people? Do you have a possible solution for keeping banned substances out of professional sports?

Ed

[Uncle Cracker]

As long as we have these overpaid egomaniacs facing the end of their accustomed lifestyles due to the natural effects of age and injury, we will see them grab for any edge they can get. No end in sight. There is just too much money, fame, et.al. at stake.

[jhart]

As far as I'm concerned, they can be banned for life and any or all of records, awards, etc stripped from them. That would send a very strong signal to those currently playing and those on the way up.

I suspect that it isn't just baseball that's having these problems as you look around at some of the people in other sports.

[LCHIEN]

As far as I'm concerned, they can be banned for life and any or all of records, awards, etc stripped from them. That would send a very strong signal to those currently playing and those on the way up.

I suspect that it isn't just baseball that's having these problems as you look around at some of the people in other sports.

One of the messages that action would send would be that it pays to juice, if you don't get caught. They're already hiding it, they'll just get better at hiding it. As long as the money and fame are there to attract them, there are people who will cheat.

They're already risking their life as it is. One player, 24, was warned he might be dead at 40, and he replied, the heck with 40, I want to be the best I can be right now.

What more penalties could we tack on?

[Ed62]

What more penalties could we tack on?

I was thinking maybe we could levy very harsh penalties for the teams who have someone fail a test, or otherwise get caught. Maybe they would have to forfeit every game after the finding, and get last choice in the draft. Getting caught in the off season could mean forfeit a number of games from the start of the following season. Something like this coould have an impact.

Ed

[jseklund]

When I was 18 I started up a sport nutrition company online- more of a learning experience than a money making one- but it gave me a lot of insight into various areas of sports that most people don't see.

In order to know my products and help people, and maintain some level of safety, I felt that I needed to know a lot about what I was selling- and eventually I wound up learning a lot about drugs- although I've never had any first hand experience.

I've maintained for about the last 8 years that 95% or better of the players in MLB, the NFL, the NHL and even Basketball juice. Why? Well, because the drugs create benefits that are different than what most people realize.

Sure, steroids make you stronger and faster. But they also aid in recovery- A LOT- which can really make you stronger and faster. Working out doesn't make you better- recovering from that workout does. Shorten recovery time and you can workout more often.

Most people look at me funny when I suggest someone who weighs 180 pounds is using performance enhancing drugs in the NBA. I know when I played a full court game with my friends in HS at the age of 17- even being in shape and very young I got worn out. No way I could do 2-3 games a week for 82 games a year. Now factor in that my friends, none of them, were playing at the intensity of a professional. Not even a college level intensity. Now maybe a SMALL percentage of people have the ability to recover from this, but it's smaller than we would like to believe.

What no one is really bringing up- steroids have been used since the 50's and 60s. You think this is something new? Barry Bonds is the first person to abuse steroids? Come on. No one wants to, or could even do the research to find out if fat old Babe Ruth used drugs. No one cared what he did. They wanted him to play the game. I really question if it's fair to penalize a certain group for the past, and not everyone in the past. Labeling this the "Steroid Era" is just ridiculous.

There are a lot of problems with steroids- the major isn't there side effects. It's actually people's perception of their side effects. These idiots abuse steroids, it's all over the media about this and that, and people think there's this magic to them. If people thought they were less magical, and realized a little of the truth- they may be more likely to make other decisions. They're uneducated. On the other hand, if people understood them better who weren't athletes- and it's hard to get rid of the fear when the media creates so much fear around them- then there may actually be more research and use for people who need them medically. The average doctor is going to be hesitant to subscribe testosterone to the average diabetic because - the patient will be scared, he will be looked at funny, and he may risk his job. But some of those patients could possibly use these for a real health benefit.

[prlundberg]

One player, 24, was warned he might be dead at 40, and he replied, the heck with 40, I want to be the best I can be right now.

I heard a similar quote from Ozzy Osbourne recently. Something to the effect that he didn't plan on living until 40 until he was 39.

[ejs1097]

isn't this like NASA spending tons of money for a weightless pen and the Russians using a pencil?

The report spent tons of money for something everyone already knows.

This is what I don't understand. Steriods are illeagal. Not by baseball, football, etc....by the USA. So when these athletes are caught, why aren't they thrown in jail?

That's how you clean it up....Everyplayer's contract has a stipulation that indicates they have to return all the monies earned on the existing contract back to the team's owners if caught with illeagal substances and criminal charges filed. College? banned from NCAA.

[JR]

This is what I don't understand. Steriods are illeagal. Not by baseball, football, etc....by the USA. So when these athletes are caught, why aren't they thrown in jail?

You're talking about two separate things. If the league suspects drug use, they have recourse based on the collective bargaining agreement with the players' union. They can not charge a player with breaking the law.

If the cops find out, they must have a case worth pusuing, chain of custody on the facts to be presented, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.

You don't necessarily want the league to depend on the courts. A good legal team, funded by a rich ball player, could easily find reasonable doubt. The league, though, could have the right to sanction a player based on evidence entirely different from that found in a court room. Out of competition blood tests, performed by accredited labs (but separate from the legal system), could result in mandatory suspensions.

The Olymic movement sports all conform to the WADA code. The USADA performs the testing and sanctioning of American athletes under this code. By and large, a first offense for athletes who test positive is two years suspension. Second offense is a life ban. Even these punishments are failing to entirely stop cheating, (viz. Marion Jones, CJ Hunter, others). Athletes have the right for arbitators to hear their case, and to appeal their rulings to the CAS in Lausanne, Switzerland. Up to now th USADA has never lost a case.

JR

[LCHIEN]

you guys are all missing the point. All these punishments apply ONLY IF YOU ARE CAUGHT. The prize is fame, and fortune IF YOU DO NOT GET CAUGHT.
Even penalties to the team can't keep the players from gambling, the team pays the players tens of millions of dollars per year if they are the best of the best. They can't control the players for that kind of money.

As long as the stakes are high enough, people will risk anything, including their lives and livlihood. In baseball, Not many people have been caught and punished to date, and juicing is not old enough to have proven to take 30 years off your life. So there's not much deterence now.

[Ed62]

Even penalties to the team can't keep the players from gambling

That is probably true, but if the penalties were high enough, the owners wouldn't be apt to sweep things under the rug. It could be that under the first testing procedures, if an athlete fails, the team would be put on notice. Second testing procedures, they pay dearly.

Ed

[Pappy]

My point of view is that we have bigger troubles in this country to worry about than 'juiced' pro athletes. Congress has more important things to spend time investigating.

The amatuer ranks should be monitored by the sactioning bodies. Penalties at that level against both schools and individuals can have an impact. The pros are a different story. It's not about competition or the fans, just money for both the athletes and owners. I have less sympathy for a pro that juices to get more $$$ than I do for the addict on the street. The pro is making a consious decision to put him self at risk. An addict is no longer in control of his life.

[LCHIEN]

My point of view is that we have bigger troubles in this country to worry about than 'juiced' pro athletes. Congress has more important things to spend time investigating.

The amatuer ranks should be monitored by the sactioning bodies. Penalties at that level against both schools and individuals can have an impact. The pros are a different story. It's not about competition or the fans, just money for both the athletes and owners. I have less sympathy for a pro that juices to get more $$$ than I do for the addict on the street. The pro is making a consious decision to put him self at risk. An addict is no longer in control of his life.

The bad thing is that Pros juicing will encourage the college and then the HS athletes to Juice. That's something we can't let get to that point.

[newood2]

The irony of this whole debate of steroid use. It is human nature to condemn and castigate others in areas where we ourselves are strong and pure. We choose issues to voice our moral prudence where we ourselves are exempt from such a behavior. The finger cannot be pointed at us. I wonder if the debate was about alcoholism rather than steroidism(I made up that word), many of us would be mum, because we would have to face our own demons. We would not be running to the mountain top in self-righteousness to herald the evils of steroid users.
The hypocrisy of it all. The same people who are pontificating about the wrongness of illegal steroid use, are the same people who are promoting the consumption of beer and alcohol(because it's legal) in their sports arenas.
There are those who will argue that steroid use in sport is a whole different issue because we are dealing with potential role models that kids are looking up to, and so they should be squeaky clean. That's a cause for laughter. They will cause kids to take steroids. That's another cause for laughter. Statistically, a higher percentage of kids still follow in their parents footstep than they do sport heroes, even in todays culture. Furthermore, kids are not all that stupid as we think.
Statistically, more kids are alcoholics than are hooked on steroids.
Make a comparison chart between alcoholism and steroidism(my word again), and see which one is socially, a more destructive addiction. Look at traffic deaths, families destroyed, social dysfuntional consequences, high school and college dropouts.
I will in no way condone the use of any drugs or alcohol, but it seems to me that steroid use is more self-destructive as compare to alcohol which can destroy others who interacts directly or indirectly with the user.
Maybe we are in the era of steroid prohibition waiting for it to become legal, then our perspective will be different.
Maybe the oldtime sport figures that we so cherish and want to canonized had their pint of "moonshine" and some coveting(gambling ways) habits that we conveniently ignore. But all that history was left up to those who penned the stories.
Enough bantering for now.
Howie

[Uncle Cracker]

Howie, if your point is that it is easier for people in general to condemn the faults of others than to recognize their own, I agree. If, however, you are saying that these sports icons, who are the idols and role models for millions, should not be held up to closer scrutiny than "common man", then I do not agree. Without integrity, sport has little value.