Home Theatre Systems

[Roger on the Rock]

Hello All;

I'm in the market for a new home theatre system and am wondering if anyone has any experience or comments on some of those with "virtual" surround sound. Bose has some with only two speakers and a sub-woofer as does Denon.

Any opinions or advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Roger

[maxparot]

I guess I own the original "Virtual Surround sound" a pair of Bose 901 speakers.
I have kept up on the newer technology in virtual but so fair they all have 1 thing in common.
No matter how good the review the final comment is they just don't compare to a real multichannel/multi speaker surround system.
I can tell you from my own experience that it holds true. Even a very cheap 5.1 system tends to be more realistic and more enveloping.
I upgraded in steps over the years first adding surround to my stereo.
I added a Dolby surround processor and rear channels even with my Bose 901 speakers the difference was remarkable.
When my wife and I were still dating she had a great 53" Sony big screen TV but was using the internal speakers for sound. I bought her a Kenwood surround receiver that came with plastic speakers and a passive 8" subwoofer. For watching movies it was better than my upgraded stereo but didn't have the sound quality for 2 channel audio.
After we were married I added a 15" subwoofer and a set of Wharfdale Crystal 20 and the matching center channel speaker. The sound quality is now excellent for all material (2 channel or multi channel)

The bottom line is a properly set up multi channel system will give a more theater type sound it is more enveloping and will always be superior to a single point system.
Most multichannel receivers are more than what is needed to recreate the theater experience.
The difference in a very high quality theater performance and a middle of the road performance is mostly in the speakers abilities.

[Roger on the Rock]

Well, part of my dilemma too is that my current speakers are pretty good....I have all parts of a 5.1 system. The main reason I am looking at changing things is my DVD player is one of the older ones with a built in 5.1 decoder and it's starting to give trouble. (Will read some discs and won't read others.) My amp is also older and doesn't have a 5.1 decoder built in....the newer DVD players don't either. So I'm faced with replacing both the receiver and the DVD player to get the quality sound. That's a pretty easy solution, but I thought I would check out the newer single point systems and get some opinions.

Thanks so far and looking forward to more information.

Cheers,

Roger

[LCHIEN]

Well, part of my dilemma too is that my current speakers are pretty good....I have all parts of a 5.1 system. The main reason I am looking at changing things is my DVD player is one of the older ones with a built in 5.1 decoder and it's starting to give trouble. (Will read some discs and won't read others.) My amp is also older and doesn't have a 5.1 decoder built in....the newer DVD players don't either. So I'm faced with replacing both the receiver and the DVD player to get the quality sound. That's a pretty easy solution, but I thought I would check out the newer single point systems and get some opinions.

Thanks so far and looking forward to more information.

Cheers,

Roger

It sounds like what you really need is a DVD with decoder.

I like these DVD players, they seem to be gaining a lot of support among HT people in the know, but they are not widely distributed:

www.oppodigital.com

look at their website and read the kudos they've been getting. The company only has a few products and they're all DVDs or DVD-related stuff so they do it well. I own two of the 970 models and they work great meaning they'll read all the disks that my other DVD players had trouble with, esp. burned disks. I got a second 970 model last month but I'd have waited and gotten the new 981 model that just came out for the Faroujda upconversion, if I had known. Anyway they range from $150 to $230. and have full upconversion and processing and digital outputs and decoder built in too if that's what you want to use.

I personally use the decoders in my Yamaha 7.1 A/V receiver. But the video of the Oppos is great.

Thise of you who know me here, when I say something is pretty good, it really is.

[Knottscott]

Hi Roger - I had a business building and selling highend speakers from the late 80's to late 90's. I haven't kept up with who's making what now, but Bose was not much more than a great marketing company at any time of their existance and I have no reason to believe they're offering more for less now. Their status in the industry is much like Budweiser's or McDonald's...just a recognizable name on an average item. They were literally a joke to the highenders, and not taken for seriously for the sound quality even in mid-fi ranks....dealers like them b/c people ask for them....albeit naive people!

What you "like" is certainly subjective, but if you like the sound of the Bose, you shouldn't have any trouble finding something else you like for about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost. I'd go to a couple more upscale stores just to get a comparison of sound. Don't worry about power or power handling...2-5 clean watts is usually enough to have your wife yelling at you to turn it down, so a 100W, 200W, or 500W amp is just a conversation piece. You don't need all the trinkets, bells and whistles either...you pay for them, they degrade clarity, and are just gadgets. Better to spend your money of higher quality straight forward circuitry and simple high quality speakers. Ask for discrete circuitry, or real transistor outputs as opposed to IC's. Again, buy what you like the sound of, and don't let a sales person who makes more on one brand sway you.

Denon was always a step above the more common names...not sure where they stand now, but odds are good they're ahead of Panasonic, JVC, Kenwood, Pioneer, Technics, etc. So was NAD and Rotel. Some of the better affordable "mid-fi" speakers were from Paradigm, NHT, Mission, Energy, Snell, etc., but I have no idea what those companies are making now. There were some good Canadian speakers back then.

Good luck and trust your ears and your judgement. If there's anything about a system that you don't like in the store, it'll be ten times worse after a month in your home.

[gsmittle]

Hi Roger - I had a business building and selling highend speakers from the late 80's to late 90's. I haven't kept up with who's making what now, but Bose was not much more than a great marketing company at any time of their existance and I have no reason to believe they're offering more for less now.

[snip]

Some of the better affordable "mid-fi" speakers were from Paradigm, NHT, Mission, Energy, Snell, etc., but I have no idea what those companies are making now. There were some good Canadian speakers back then.

Good luck and trust your ears and your judgement. If there's anything about a system that you don't like in the store, it'll be ten times worse after a month in your home.

+1 on what Dustmight says. I listened to a LOT of speakers back in the day when I bought my system. Fortunately, I had a friend who was a bit of an audiophile, and he took me to a couple of high-end stores. What I found, besides the really great sound, was NO pressure to buy anything. The salespeople would let you sit there and listen as long as you liked, to whatever music you liked. In fact, one shop owner and I sat around for two hours talking music, not electronics.....Man, was that fun!

Then we went to a couple of more mass-market places--the difference was incredible! Lots of pressure to BUY NOW!!!!!!, no real chance to listen to anything, lots of numbers batted about, etc. One guy told me that I wanted the biggest woofer I could get, certianly over 12". And he told me that four-way speakers were inherently better than two-way.

I went back to one of the specialty dealers and ended up with Paradigm 5SE speakers (two-way with a 6" woofer). Nice, tight, clean bass, low power demand, clear highs, decent imaging....at less than half the price of the four-way, big-woofered junk. Oh, it's powered by a very clean 20-watt amp. You don't need 80 bazillion watts of power.

The moral of the story is just what DM said--trust your ears. After all, you'll be listening to these speakers for a looooooong time. If you find yourself listening less and less, you can be sure something about the setup or equipment isn't right.

Lemme know when you're going shopping--I'm sure I can drop everything and help you....

g.

[BigguyZ]

Not to knock on the experience of those here. But- a WONDERFUL resource for finding out A/V info is www.AVSforum.com. In fact, it was on that forum where someone in the DIY audio section linked to here as a good WWing forum, and thus my addiction (and newest hobby) began.

Every individual part of a home theater has it's own forum. From HTIB (Home Theater in a Box) to separates, they have a lot of information!

Now MY $0.02... I'd stay away from HTIB. I'd especially stay away from BOSE. They are notorious for being overpriced and there are many many alternatives that provide better sound for less money. A lot of people will ague this issue, so take it with a grain of salt and as my humble opinion. I'm not a fan of the idea of a "Home Theater" from only 2 speakers. I think you can go with smaller satelites (either single driver or a 2-way monitor), but you MUST have a decent subwoofer that has an OK midrange.

Also- I really would advise you NOT to immeadiately think you have to BUY your speakers. Why don't you BUILD your speakers. That's how I initially got into WWing... You don't have to design the things- there are people who get paid to do that. There are numerous resources that contain designs of speakers that beat what you'll find in the standard B&M stores, and compete with the lines you'll find in a boutique audio store. I built a set of Audax speakers, and would have had to have paid MUCH more to get the same quality elswhere. This is possible because the manufacturer of the speaker drivers, Audax, paid a famous speaker designer (Joe D'Appolito) to make a design around their specific drivers. You work primarily with MDF (though some people use ply, I think MDF is the better choice), and you don't need to incorporate anything harder than a butt joint. If you know how to wire/ solder, you can build your own crossovers, but many companies sell kits with them pre-built. Best of all, you can choose how you want the speakers to look. Real wood veneer? Sure. You can go exotic, or use a more common species veneer. Vinyl for functionality? Painted? High gloss piano black? Pink even? Whatever you want.

AVSforum.com has a DIY Audio specific forum, so I'd recomend going there.

Hope that helps.

[Roger on the Rock]

Thanks for the advise so far guys. I think I've pretty much decided that I won't go with one of those home theatre's in a box and I'm going to stay away from Bose. The speakers I have now I am very happy with. They are Camber 1.5's up front with PSB centre, rear & sub. The sound they produce is excellent in my opinion and when I listen to friends' with the "Home Theatre in a Box" solutions, I still come home knowing that mine sounds better.

So, I guess I'll be going with a new amp and a new DVD player/recorder combo. I'll also be getting a LCD TV in about the 40" range....so what should I be looking for in the amp & DVD player so that I won't have to worry about buying any more of this stuff for about another 20 years?

Again, thanks for the quick and valuable advice so far.

Cheers,

Roger

[LCHIEN]

...so what should I be looking for in the amp & DVD player so that I won't have to worry about buying any more of this stuff for about another 20 years?

Again, thanks for the quick and valuable advice so far.

Cheers,

Roger

Well, it's not here yet.
Something in a high def DVD player, but they're still duking it out in the marketplace; Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD = Betamax vs VHS
so you'll need to decide in a year or so. toal chaos and they didn't learn a thing from history.

[Roger on the Rock]

Hmmm...good advice. Perhaps I should look into getting my present DVD player fixed for now and re-think a replacement in a year or so. What rots me is the prices they charge for fixing the stuff when new ones...albeit low end stuff....is so economical.

What would cause a DVD player to only read some discs and not others??

Cheers,

Roger

[knotley]

Roger:

I have had PSB speakers in various systems for the last 25 years. They use the acoustic Research lab in Ottawa to design them. There is a new line of Alpha speakers - the best bang for the buck most of us will ever need. The Alpha Bs have sold over 30,000 units. It is now the B1. Once one gets to a certain level of quality in speakers, the amount of dollars spent above that level doesn't mean much more in quality IMHO. I am looking at a new pair of Alpha T (towers). So, I think your speakers are great!!

I haven't made many speakers, but have made a few subwoofers. That is a fun, easy project

PSB speakers -
http://www.psbspeakers.com/
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...+Owners+thread


Just got the Yamaha rxv-659. Available at Future Shop under the HTR-5960 model number. Has everything I will ever need, but doesn't have HDMI, which is still not a standard format yet (1.2 vs 1.3?). So HDMI in the amp doesn't mean much yet.

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...aRX-V659p1.php

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=659

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=659

[LCHIEN]

I must have last year's model, the Yamaha RX-V657
and it's been a fine A/V receiver. I am using my old speakers for mains - two each original 1973 vintage Advent speakers per Right and Left mains, plus some Sony center and surrounds for the rears. The Advents were and still are quite fine speakers although you might say they don't look too stylish they still sound great (after updating all the woofer surrounds). Compared to many speakers today they go fairly low down to below 40 Hz but I really splurged and spent for a somewhat massive 325W SVS subwoofer which goes flat down to 16 Hz.
The "double Advent" speakers stacked vertically flanking the projection screen stand pretty tall but compared to the 80" diagonal screen they don't look so bad. And the total sound is pretty awesome I think rivaling a good theater with a full THX approved sound system.
I still keep my Vandersteen 2ci speakers for plain old stereo music listening in the family room downstairs.

[25]

I have a THIB's, it's worth it if you just want something and don't have the $$$'s to get something nicer. Also this allows me to replace the parts slowly and still have something to use while building a better system .

Then again I think I have more phone with making everything talk to each other and the PC then I do actually using the system.

[maxparot]

I know most people dislike Bose speakers and I agree most of their products are hype. I take 1 exception to that. The 901 speaker can perform very well in real life conditions if you have an amplifier that can support their need for power. Having used them with a Carver M-400t amp that could supply 200 watts per channel @ 8 ohms in a 400sq ft room that was about mid way between live and dead and having calibrated the systems EQ with a pink noise generator, an octave equalizer and spectrum analyzer.
Yes 901 speakers can perform quite well delivering accurate frequency response but they are not efficient.
The only other Bose product that delivered was based on the 901 it was the 801 and 802 sound reenforcement speakers used for stage monitors.

[Roger on the Rock]

Wow...thanks for the great responses and advice so far.

I'm thinking now to keep the speakers I've got....no issues with them at all....replace the amp with something that will support a good DVD player and LCD TV, and get a lower end DVD player for now until the industry gets things sorted out WRT what will be the standard...HD or Blue-Ray.

Sound like a plan?

Cheers,

Roger