HD TV Tuners: Educate Me, Please

[LarryG]

I know very little about big-screen HD televisions except that the prices are coming down to the point where I may soon been able to justify buying one.

Looking at the various models in various stores, I see that some include a built-in tuner and some are apparently monitors only, requiring an "outside source" tuner.

My two questions are:

1. If the tuner is not built in, what provides this function? A box from the cable/satellite company? A function built into a home theatre receiver and sound system? Either, both, something else?

2. Given the way the technology is changing, would it be considered advantageous to have the tuner separate, so that it could be upgraded independently of the TV, or vice-versa?

Thanks!

[LCHIEN]

Analog tuners for OTA (over the air) we are used to are called NTSC.
Analog cable is able to be tuned by NTSC tuners.
Digital OTA transmission is on the same RF bands but the encodeing is different and follows ATSC definition. Digital cable transmissions are encoded differently, I'm not sure how many encoding methods are in use, different cable systems use different methods.

You can buy monitors with no tuner, you can buy TVs with ATSC only and some with NTSC and ATSC tuners. Eventually NTSC will be phased out and ATSC are required more or less by legislation now for bigger sets and soon for smaller sets.

In my area at least, duplicate ATSC broadcasts are now being made for
corresponding NTSC channels, if you just use OTA (over the air) programming there's no need to buy sets with NTSC tuners anymore.

If you have an older TV set, eventually NTSC broadcasts wll be shut off. You will then need to buy a new set or buy a set-top box (pizza box) which will received ATSC broadcasts over your current antenna and output them as converted to NTSC channel 3 or 4 like you old VCRs used to do, or output composite or component or HDMI signals which the monitor TVs can receive. Most of the old TVs will take only NTSC channel 3 or 4 and some probably composite (yellow, red, white cables to so called A/V inputs).

But if you have cable there's more problems.
You may need an external NTSC tuner (most VCRs have one built in) to receive analog cable channels if your TV doesn't have an NTSC tuner. Or, you can get a cable box which will receive the digital cable signals and turn them into HDMI, component, S-video or Composite baseband signals a monitor and most new TVs can use.

I have not seen any A/V receivers with built-in ATSC tuners. The most flexible wil be a TV receiver with both tuners as well as a bevy of A/V inputs (at least two HDMI these days). But I think judging from prices, that each tuner will add $50 to 100 to the cost of the TV (used to be several hundred) and some complexity. The choice of what to get depends on your dependence on old sources and if you have cable and what type of cable service you plan to pony up to.

If cost was no object, I would forget tuners and rent HiDef digital cable and their HD set top box and have it convert the cable HD signals to HDMI baseband and switch it through my high dollar A/V receiver (with three HDMI source inputs) and take the A/V receiver HDMI output to the TV which need only then have one input. An upconverting/HD DVD player into the second AV receiver input and a PS3 into the third.

In my area, standard cable with analog is $45 per month after tax. HD is another $5 per month and the digital box to receive it will be $8 per month; I have several TVs in different rooms of the house so I see my cable costs soaring to $75 per month or around $800 per year to equip 3 TVs. But, I digress.

[LinuxRandal]

Wow, quite a bit of info.


I guess I'll stick with my idea. Eliminate the tv, and spend more time in the shop.

[25]

I'll go from a slightly different route since I don't think I can add anything LCHIEN didn't say already.

One thing to consider, I recently bought a Mitsubishi LT-3280, I love the picture quality of the TV.

I have a cable card from my cable company so I can use the TV's built in tuner. However the tuner on it absolutly sucks. It can take upwards of 3-4 seconds to tune to a digital channel. If it does, otherwise you have to tune to a different digital channel and then back again. The TV-Guide On Screen(TVGOS) is absolute crap, Mits' implimentation at least. Just trying to page-up or page-down takes 5 seconds before it changes. The regular analog channels are a little slow compared to some TV's I've used. Then again I'm one of those people that channel surfs so quickly that I usually only see a couple frames of the channel before going to the next one, if the TV can keep up.

I have used other TVs with the TVGOS have worked just fine, so this is definetly a Mitsubishi issue. I don't even want to get started on their implimentation from a useability stand point. I've heard that other versions have the same issue.

I also have a cable box(non-HD) from the cable company that we used before we got the new TV. After trying out the TV with the cable card, I have gone back to using the cable box for regular TV and only using the cable card for HD channels. I am probbably going to start looking into going the Myth TV route and just use the TV and a monitor.

Lesson Learned: Make sure you try out the TV's guide if you plan to use it, even if it doesn't show much in the way of data, just navigating around it will tell you alot.

If it weren't for the usability issues I think the built in tuner would be great.

[messmaker]

The set tuner is dicey right now. Most people will continue to get their signal from a provider(cable,dish) and will stop using an antena once the HD signals are mainstream.Unless you don't want to go this route and want an antena, get a monitor. It makes hook up more simple and saves you about $250.

[scorrpio]

The lineup:
1. HDTV monitor: Accepts hig-def signal - either component or DVI(HDMI is basically DVI + digital sound in one cable), and displays a hi-def image. You have to hook it up to a cabl/satellitee box, DVD, PC or console. You cannor hook it up to an antenna.

2. HDTV: Has a built-in tuner. You can hook it up to an antenna, and get whatever is broadcast in your area.

3. DCR (digital cable ready). Essentially, a TV with buil-in cable box. You do not need to get an extra box from your cable company, just an extra descrambler card. Card goes into a slot on the TV. Benefits of this are:
a) cheaper - extra card costs less per month than extra box.
b) flexible - can watch more than one channel at once via PiP or split screen.
c) neater - no extra box and cable(s) - great for mounting on wall in a bedroom.
Main drawback is for most cable services, advanced stuff like games, on-demand and DVR requires a box.

So, unless you plan to use an antenna, you can get just a 'monitor'.

A/V receivers generally don't provide TV tuning. They allow you to aggregate all video sources you may have into one so there is only one cable going to the TV. And they also handle the sound. The best thing to get is a reciever with HDMI upconversion. It will accept any form of input - from composite to HDMI, convert to HDMI and output it to TV. Most HD cable boxes, DVD players and PCs today already have a direct DVI or HDMI output, but upconversion lets you use older equipment that has composite, S-video or component output.

[vaking]

Larry,
I am already in this boat and already did some research, so I can give you one warning.
Do not underestimate the issue of digital copyrights. There are 2 types of HD signal. The over the air transmission has no digital copyright issues - it is a free content. Copyrighted content can be delivered via digital cable or satellite or come from Hidef DVDs that you will soon be able to buy. In order to receive copyrighted content you must have a cable card that carries your personal ID on it. The card must come from your content provider and be plugged in either the box given to you with subscription or your HD tuner must have support for such card. Without the card you can only receive free broadcast and I doubt there will be much interesting there.
In order to receive copyrighted content from external tuner/box or even Hidef DVD player I strongly suggest to make sure your TV supports digital copyrights. In common language today it means that TV must have HDMI input. Do not settle for TV that does not have it. The earlier statement that HDMI = DVI + Sound is close but not exact (by Scorpio). A better statement is that HDMI=HDCP+Sound. HDCP is a connection that looks like DVI but supports digital right enforcement. Most existing DVI devices do not support it.
To illustrate the significance of it:
I have a Philips TV capable of high def picture with built-in standard (not high def) tuner. It can receive standard input from cable but not high def input.
The TV has additional inputs of component type (3 RCA cables up to 1080i resolution) and DVI - also up to 1080i resolution. Neither input supports digital rights.
I have also Philips DVD player with built-in upconvert feature. It cannot play Hidef DVDs but it can play regular DVD and upconvert the output resolution to Hidef. The player has Component output and HDMI output. I can connect the player to TV in 2 ways - using component cables or HDMI-DVI cable. The player will play on component out with resolution up to 480P (standard resolution only) because this connection cannot possibly support the digital rights. The player will play on HDMI output in hidef but only after resolving rights. That means - it will play at hidef a home-made DVD because it has no copyright protection. If I try to play a DVD from the store - the player will try to verify that TV supports digital rights before playing. Since my TV does not support it - the player will tell me about it and will play DVD at standard resolution. In other words - the TV that I have is not likely to play any copyrighted content in hidef ever.

[HarmsWay]

In order to receive copyrighted content from external tuner/box or even Hidef DVD player I strongly suggest to make sure your TV supports digital copyrights. In common language today it means that TV must have HDMI input. Do not settle for TV that does not have it. The earlier statement that HDMI = DVI + Sound is close but not exact (by Scorpio). A better statement is that HDMI=HDCP+Sound. HDCP is a connection that looks like DVI but supports digital right enforcement. Most existing DVI devices do not support it.

Is that true? I have a 4 year old projector with DVI that does not but I seem to recall that the changeover happened very soon after I bought (as it turns out it is a relatively easy thing to work around but not free). I haven't run into anything yet it wouldn't accept via DVI though.

Larry, how do you watch TV now? If it's just over the air, then get something with tuners to support both systems. If you watch via your cable company (or satellite) then you won't need it. Where I am, HD over the air is not going to happen any time soon so it's a non-issue. Having said that, from what I recall, the decision as to whether or not to get an ATSC tuner is usually made for you. The sets that are big enough to warrant watching ATSC (HD anyway) will have tuners. The smaller ones may have them. It's at very little cost to the manufacturers. I have one TV with an ATSC tuner and one satellite receiver which has one built in. Obviously in my case neither have been used.

Bob

[Otter]

Is that true? I have a 4 year old projector with DVI that does not but I seem to recall that the changeover happened very soon after I bought (as it turns out it is a relatively easy thing to work around but not free). I haven't run into anything yet it wouldn't accept via DVI though.

Larry, how do you watch TV now? If it's just over the air, then get something with tuners to support both systems. If you watch via your cable company (or satellite) then you won't need it. Where I am, HD over the air is not going to happen any time soon so it's a non-issue. Having said that, from what I recall, the decision as to whether or not to get an ATSC tuner is usually made for you. The sets that are big enough to warrant watching ATSC (HD anyway) will have tuners. The smaller ones may have them. It's at very little cost to the manufacturers. I have one TV with an ATSC tuner and one satellite receiver which has one built in. Obviously in my case neither have been used.

Bob

The issue of digital rights is sumed up in HDCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Ba...ent_Protection) Not all DVI supports it, most of the time it applies to best definition only, ie 1080i or today 1080p. It is up to the publisher to enforce the application. Right now if you own a XBOX 360 and the HD DVD player you can get a HD DVD at 1080p over componet. So DRM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Rights_Management) is not in full force yet except on HDMI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-De...edia_Interface) Many Cable, and Sat tuners can be hooked up and set to 1080i/720p today via componet with no issues because the standard is not in full effect or is it totaly aggreed on. Not to say ignore the warnings, but know that it anit all settled out yet.

[HarmsWay]

Good wiki links. The first had a link to the HDCP workaround I mentioned.

Bob

[vaking]

Bob,
My TV is 55" LCOS display that Philips discontinued in December 2004. It was a high end model, has DVI but no HDCP. At least - that is what Philips DVD player says.

[HarmsWay]

My Sharp of about the same vintage says it supports HDCP on DVI, but I don't know that I've ever tested that feature. And as I mentioned before, my Sanyo projector doesn't have HDCP on its DVI and I've never run into any material that down-rezed due to an HDCP requirement. But do any current TV's even put DVI connectors on them? I thought everyone used HDMI now.

Bob

[Otter]

Although HDMI connectors are on most sets today insted of DVI it is nothing more than a DVI-D with Digital audio on it There are adapters that break out the HDMI to DVI-D and SPDIF or the other way around to support older tuners. Those won't be around much longer as MPEG4 takes over the digital transmition systems.

[sacherjj]

I won't buy another HDTV without a tuner in it. The extra cost is less than $100, but set top boxes are looking like $200 or more now. Here in Indy, everyone broadcasts in HD. We have three HDTV capable units, but only the $430 32" LCD I picked up at HD on black friday has a tuner. The over the air picture is going to be the best version of the network channels you will get. They do not compress the signals as much as cable or satelite. Now my problem is that I have to watch TV live if I want HD. I'm spoiled with Tivo. It is time to build an HDTV recording MythTV system.

[Otter]

I won't buy another HDTV without a tuner in it. The extra cost is less than $100, but set top boxes are looking like $200 or more now. Here in Indy, everyone broadcasts in HD. We have three HDTV capable units, but only the $430 32" LCD I picked up at HD on black friday has a tuner. The over the air picture is going to be the best version of the network channels you will get. They do not compress the signals as much as cable or satelite. Now my problem is that I have to watch TV live if I want HD. I'm spoiled with Tivo. It is time to build an HDTV recording MythTV system.

So true the OTA signal is only compressed to around 12 to 13 mbit/sec (yes i mean bit) Most DSS and Cable are compressing to 7 to 9 mbit/sec via MPEG 4. Media center is also an option, I have been playing with Vista with good results, I use my XBOX 360 for my extender and it is very good.