Price of gas. Sorry, I have to.

[cwsmith]

Yeah, sort of silly isn't it? Like for some poor folks, that adds up to what? Probably not even a week's worth of gas!

I noted on last night's evening news, that Exxon's profit (not gross income, but PROFIT!!!) this year would equate to approximately $150 for every man, woman, and child in the U.S.

So, while the government crooks are talking about their token rebate, which we the tax payers will end up paying for anyway; they've given big oil massive tax breaks. I guess all that lobby money that the oil companies shovel at Congress and the Senate is really a very worthwhile investment.

Did you also know that though Exxon has been overflowing in money, they still haven't paid for the Exxon Valdez disaster? I guess both they and the government that they've bought off, both figure that the plaintiffs will all die and the whole disaster will be forgotten. Democracy only seems to work for people with enough cash to buy off the lawmakers.

CWS

[Warren]

Joe, those petty sheiks, princes, and emirs gotta live.

One thing never changes . . . the price of everything goes up not down. My pension has an annual cost of living increase built in. The increases are a percentage of a standard developed by the Feds. So, if I tried to live only on my pension my standard of living would be constantly eroded. I knew when I retired from the Police Department that I couldn't retire from working, nor would I want to, unless I wanted to live on less and less money. I'm one of those greedy people who wants his standard of living to increase so, I work. I ask nothing of anyone. Never have, never will. If need be, I'd trade work for food. I'll provide for my family first and then anyone else who needs assistance. I have no sympathy for anyone not willing to help themselves and will do everything within my power to help someone trying to better themselves.

I don't have a grasp of the "humanity law." Who came up with and who enforces it? Where I grew up it was survival of the fittest, unless it was a union shop. Then it was everybody paid the same in a position no matter how well they performed. On the police department the least productive officer was paid as much as the most productive. Of course this made it easy to spot the selfstarters and selfsustainers.

Now, I'm free to make as much money as I can. People pay me what they think I am worth. If I don't like it I either negotiate for more or move on. If we don't like the way OPEC runs the crude market America should have either started using less of it years ago or developed our own production. Blaming OPEC for making money while we did absolutely nothing to improve our position is hardly productive. OPEC is only reaping what they sowed. They've got the producing fields, we don't. Do the math. None of the OPEC countries have to belong to the organization. They belong because of the clout. If they act together they can all reap the benefits of higher prices. We have to be pragmatic when we look at the situation. Again, they've got the oil and we want it.

The hard fact is that America is an oil dependant nation. And nothing we do now can change that in the short run. Years ago we could have increased our own oil production and we didn't. We could have reactors all over the country, but we preferred to stick with oil, gas and coal. Wind farms, who wants them in their neighborhood.

Somewhere along the line a leader has to emerge who will demand that we, the people make some hard decisions. Dams interfer with fish. Windmills supposedly interfer with birds and are eye sores. Nuclear reactors are ugly and dangereous. The auto manufacturers can't, or won't, at this time produce an alternative fuel vehicle which sells. American's can't, or won't reduce their demand for plastics, gasoline, and other oil dependant products. It's not that complicated. It will just take time to overcome.

Build dams. Build windmills. Increase domestic oil production. Build nuclear power plants. Pay less attention to the "greenies" and other "naysayers" and simply do what needs to be done and quit debating. Gradually reduce our dependance on oil (domestic and imported) by using the technologies currently available to generate power. Then, provide incentives for the developement of newer technologies.

[Warren]

CWS: You've gotta guit watching PBS and the national TV. The oil spill generated a few short term problems up here and a lot of money for fishermen and other's with boats to lease for the cleanup. A lot of people made a lot of money in a short period of time. The superficial and hysterical cleanup was undertaken primarily because of an uniformed public's outcry. If we'd just let nature take it's course the area would have healed itself well and quickly. Some of the "clean up" efforts caused more damage than if the contamination had been left to naturally dissipate

Further, ExxonMobil isn't required to pay the damage assessment until it has exhausted all of it's legal alternatives. If you were in auto weck and a court said you had to pay 3 or 4 million over and above what your insurance company was obligated to pay would you appeal if you thought the assessment could be substantialy reduced. You bet you would. Why in the world would you want to pay a penny more that you absolutely had to any sooner that you legally had to?

[Xamu]

I've got a few random thoughts as well. I'm not working off an outline so please forgive me when I ramble.

1. I hate the "Well people in Europe have been paying $4/gal for years" argument. What? Am I supposed to feel guilty for paying less? Am I supposed to want to pay more because someone else did? Should I pay several times retail for a tool and then post a tool gloat? Don't be daft.
2. It's okay with me that oilco execs make millions and that they post record profits. Really. If any of you made millions of dollars I wouldn't hold it against you. It's the American dream to work hard and make a lot of money. And oilcos do employ a lot of people directly and indirectly (tanker truck drivers, sailors on ships to haul, etc.) and that's a good thing too. Some of them even buy finely hand crafted wooden furniture for obscene amounts of money.
   So, if they can make money without having to sink a fortune back into infrastructure then that's a good way to make some short term profits.
   BUT, they shouldn't be surprised either when their customers turn on them when it seems that the oilcos are acting against the interest of the people who line up to pay them.
3. I don't pretend to understand all the ins and outs of commodities and trading but I know enough to know that it is not really about supply and demand. The traders think that there may be a shortage and the price goes up. Not there was a shortage. Not there will be a shortage. Just there might be a shortage. And, as someone already said, the prices at the pump don't come down as fast when the traders think there will be a surplus.
4. In the town I grew up there were three oil refineries and several more chemical processing plants. They are still there pumping out gasoline as fast as they can. They are large. They stink. They are on the coast so they can get the crude processed with less transportation costs. If you live near one, then you know; they stink. And there hasn't been a new one built in America in I don't even know how long - maybe 20-30 years?
   They are expensive to build and getting the government and the greenies out of the way probably doubles the cost - maybe more. Not that the oilcos can't afford it. But they will have to buy a fair amount of land and develop a town around it (because no town is gonna let them just move in because - did I mention this? They stink).
   But when they ever do get around to building another one it will take a fair amount of time and there are not a lot of skilled refinery operators sitting around doing nothing. The ones that are sitting around doing nothing will need to move to be closer to the refinery (which isn't close to any existing town). And for the entire time that they are building the thing, the press will be pissing and moaning about how awful the oilcos are for upsetting a colony of 7 armadillos infected with leprosy just to employ a few thousand people and improve the world economy.
5. I am truly bugged that there was a law or act or whatever passed a while back whereby the gas stations could not post all the different taxes which were included in the price of a gallon. The various governments became apoplectic at the thought of the people knowing the dirty little secret. A while back in Illinois when the price broke about $1.75, I heard some state rep say that in the first month they exceeded gas tax revenues for the quarter. He was really excited and was talking about all these new things they could spend it on (never mind the things they already couldn't pay for).
   And, of course, the taxes are not typically a flat amount like 5¢ or 10¢ a gallon. Of course not. They're a percentage. So when the price goes up, the tax goes up too.
6. I don't know quite how it happened but some how the government and the oilcos thought that putting MTBE in gasoline would make for less pollution. Probably went something like this:
   "Mr. Oilco, you need to find a way to reduce carbon monoxide emissions in cars."
   "How am I gonna do that Senator?"
   "I don't really care as long as it is done by the end of the week or I'll throw you all in jail for pollutin'."
   Maybe I'm all wrong on this guess but the oilcos must have had a reason to add MTBE in the first place. I just have no idea what it is.
7. When will America finally wake up and smell the french fries? I mean biodiesel? We want big powerful cars with big powerful engines. We want independence from the oil producers. We want to support the farmers. The answer is right in front of us at the drive through window. Think it ain't cool to drive a diesel? Check this out.
   I saw a tv show last fall about some company selling a system that fits in a corner of your garage that can turn used vegetable fry oil and some easily obtainable chemicals into biodiesel for about 70¢ a gallon. Fuel economy was actually a little better than the standard diesel product. Imagine not worrying about jackrabbit starts from light to light and not caring about fuel economy cause the cost is only 15-25% of what you pay at the pump.

Okay, that's enough rant for me for now.

[DUD]

Gas has started dropping here, I saw $2.69 today. Bill

[Warren]

They dropped .02 up here at most places today.

JP: I loved your last observation. The thought of eating more fried foods is very appealing to me. I doubt the health nuts will allow it though. They think we're all eating too much fried food already. ****! For every solution arrived at there is already a formidable army massed to defeat it.

If this thread keeps going I'm gonna get to 100 posts. Is that where I get my promotion? Been here for three years and I'm still ranked as a "forum newbie." Heck I made Airman 1st twice in that amount of time.

[Joe Lyddon]

One thing never changes . . . the price of everything goes up not down.

If prices can be prevented from going up SO FAST, why not try?
Sometimes, the reason is illegal and should be stopped, which I feel is the case here with oil.

I don't have a grasp of the "humanity law." Who came up with and who enforces it?

There is International Law... Here, we have monopoly laws to prevent overwhelming product control, etc.

International Law should have similar laws to prevent controlling like a monopoly, etc.

Opec is clearly controlling production and prices of oil, a worldwide quality commodity. It should be illegal for them to do it. It should be broken up and any attempts to continue, under the table, should result in punishment by International Law. There is an obvoious monopoly of oil control here.

If you haven't heard of "humanity law", good, I just defined it...

We have laws about price gouging (humanity laws, IMHO).

There should be International Laws to cover the same.

Who enforces International Law?

To make things worse, other companies jump on the band wagon "to make (steal) hay while it's here" and price gouge making things a whole lot worse!

There are normal, fair profits... and there are obscene grossly unfair robbery profits that can disrupt the world economy.

IMHO...

I heard the same type of crap when California was getting robbed when the Electrical power price fixing & control was happening... We, living here, KNEW it was happening and wanted it stopped temporarily for investigation, etc. Others, not living here, were looking forward to Calif. going bankrupt so they could come in and buy us up for pennies on the dollar... a real greedy bunch! The Law has just about finally caught up with them... Thank God something was done before they did cause anymore trouble!

This oil thing, IMHO, is the same type of thing but on a Worldwide level... that can cause enormous world problems if not stopped.

[Warren]

Joe: OPEC is hardly a monopoly. They only control about 40% of the available product. Canada, Mexico, Russia and the US are not part of OPEC. All four of these countires sit on a lot of oil. Russia is going a mile a minute striving to get theirs to market. Of course, Even the non OPEC countries tie the price of their crude to OPEC's in smoe manner. You do after all want the highest possible price for your product whether it's a hamburger or a barrel of oil.

Over the years the United States has continueally decided against reducing it's demand for foreign oil. Barriers have been erected against drilling and the building of refineries so that other countries, Mexico being one, are much more attractive to the oil companies.

Our country has made a conscious decision not to increase oil production and reduce the demand for foreign oil. Further, the country has decided that nuclear reactors are a political anathama. Now no one seems to want acres of windmills anywhere with in their range of sight. Dams disturb the habitats of fish. This goes on ad infinitum.

Until this country gets some leadership with the backbone to drag us into the 21st century we'll stay dependant on foreign oil.

I'm betting that oil goes to over $100.00 a barrel and that we'll be paying $5.00 a gallon plus for gas in the near future. Somewhere near that point the feds and the states will reduce gas taxes. Of course there will be concomitant tax increases in places will will stomach. And, while I don't like it, I'm pragmatic enough to accept it as fact and invest with that in mind. I don't make a lot of money but, I plan on leaving the kid a little after the government gets its blood money when I die. Like prices, over time the market always climbs higher.

It's only at the pumps where the general public gets irate when the prices raise. I suspect that is because people pump their own pay immediately. As opposed to the deductions out of paychecks. That's a fuzzy concept to a lot of people. They really don't look at the money as theirs. It's something the employer pays. And, if they get money back at tax time, some of them are ignorant enough to brag about it. Imagine, lending the government money at no interest and being proud of it. I suspect that a lot of people really have no idea as to how much they really earn in wages and benefits. My apologies for digressing from the thread's subject.

I've not heard of laws against price "gouging." I know certain utilities have their rates regulated. And, a few other businesses. But, nothing but good sense prohibits the owner of a baseball team from charging $1,000.00 per ticket. I know there are laws that prohibit multi-tier price structures based on race or other considerations. However, you can sell at a lower price to veterns, members of fraternal organizations, employees, people born on the third Thursday of the month, or whatever, But, I know of no laws prohibiting "gouging." It's like the guy who invented a better mouse trap. He sat the prive at $1,000,000.00. When asked how many he expected to sell at that price, he replied that he only needed to sell one and he could retire from the business. Your asking price can be whatever you want it to be. The selling price will be whatever the customer is willing to pay.

I guess what it boils down to is; we made our bed and now we'll have sleep in it. We're dependant on foreign oil and by God, we want to stay that way. At least we're not going to do anything about. It's a bi-partisan problem. There's more than enough blame for our current predicament for both parties and we're years away from any kind of resolution.

[maxparot]

Maybe it's time we start the old cry again, wheat for oil. We still feed the world.

[Russianwolf]

I've not heard of laws against price "gouging." I know certain utilities have their rates regulated. And, a few other businesses. But, nothing but good sense prohibits the owner of a baseball team from charging $1,000.00 per ticket. I know there are laws that prohibit multi-tier price structures based on race or other considerations. However, you can sell at a lower price to veterns, members of fraternal organizations, employees, people born on the third Thursday of the month, or whatever, But, I know of no laws prohibiting "gouging." It's like the guy who invented a better mouse trap. He sat the prive at $1,000,000.00. When asked how many he expected to sell at that price, he replied that he only needed to sell one and he could retire from the business. Your asking price can be whatever you want it to be. The selling price will be whatever the customer is willing to pay.

quite a few states have laws against price gouging. FL for example. But they are usually targeted towards Natural Disaster type things. For example, say a Huricane hits FL (big stretch I know, but let's just imagine), If you drive down there and try to sell generators to the "victims" for $2k that are really only worth $500, you can be arrested for gouging. The reason being is that you are taking unfair advantage of someone in extraordinary circumstances. Demand is high and supply is low and there will be people willing to pay your price, but it's morally wrong, and they got a law on the books to cover it.

I have to admit, that I don't thing the gouging laws can readily be applied to gas prices. The reason I say that is that the increases are across the board, not one localized area.

[jziegler]

quite a few states have laws against price gouging. FL for example. But they are usually targeted towards Natural Disaster type things. For example, say a Huricane hits FL (big stretch I know, but let's just imagine), If you drive down there and try to sell generators to the "victims" for $2k that are really only worth $500, you can be arrested for gouging. The reason being is that you are taking unfair advantage of someone in extraordinary circumstances. Demand is high and supply is low and there will be people willing to pay your price, but it's morally wrong, and they got a law on the books to cover it.

I have to admit, that I don't thing the gouging laws can readily be applied to gas prices. The reason I say that is that the increases are across the board, not one localized area.

NJ currently has laws against gas price gouging, and has recently prosecuted several oil companies and independent gas stations with this law. Of course, the law is pretty silly in how it works. It has nothing to do with the actual price, the rate of increase, or anything like that. It is simply that it is price gouging if the price is raised more than once within a 24 hour period. You can't raise the price $.01 twice in a single day. But, you could raise it $1.00 (or more) each and every day. And as far as I know, you can drop it as much as you want anytime.

It's an easy to apply price gouging law, but I don't know that it has any real purpose the way it stands.

Jim

[Deadhead]

I heard the same type of crap when California was getting robbed when the Electrical power price fixing & control was happening...

Wasn't it California government that fixed the price? Except they called it "price controls" and went on to prove why they don't work. Demand exceded supply because there was no financial incentive to conserve at the consumer level and you got brown outs and rolling black outs.

[Joe Lyddon]

Wasn't it California government that fixed the price? Except they called it "price controls"...

I really can't remember what was done! I didn't think I'd ever forget it!
I think they came to an agreement to freeze the frenzy so it wouldn't get any worse... The Gov. made a stupid deal with someone(?)...
Then the Enron and other stories started to unfold proving that they were illegally manipulating electrical power. Whatever they did, it DID calm the waters and stopped it from getting worse.

There is not a doubt in my mind that there is a lot of Hanky Panky going on in the oil field... Obviously, OPEC... and others can't keep their fingers out of the cookie jar!

We shall see as time goes on...

Someone said they were not aware of laws against price gouging...

It seems like I just saw where the Senate is investigating to find out if any Price Gouging is happening... There are laws about it...

... and here comes Chevron with their fingers in the cookie jar... almost 50% increase in Profit (that's after expenses, people)... that doesn't happen just by cutting costs and being more efficient, aka working for it!

Chevron Earnings Soar 49 Percent to $4B
Apr 28, 10:20 AM (ET)
Chevron Corp. (CVX)'s first-quarter profit soared 49 percent to $4 billion, joining the procession of U.S. oil companies to report colossal earnings as lawmakers consider ways to pacify motorists agitated about rising gas prices.
http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/200...D8H929N00.html

[Warren]

The higher the profits, the healthier my retirement plan and that's good for all the members. The higher the profits, the healthier my investments and that's good for my family. The higher the price of gas, the less hard cash I have available to other things. There are pluses and minuses in almost every situation.

I guess my question would be, how much profit should be allowed on a gallon of gas? One cent? Ten cents? Three dollars? One hundred dollars? And who is the individual who is to set the profit level?

By the way, thanks for the information on price gouging laws. Being a bit of a libritarian I'm pretty much opposed to the government's interference in business in any manner. I didn't wait for the power to go out before buying a generator. I knew there were power outages in the area I moved to and that the temperatures went below freezing buring the winters. So, I purchased a generator. I try to be prepared for foreseeable problems and not wait until I'm at the mercy of the elements. Granted you can't prepare for every eventuality but, hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, etc. are certainly something one should gear up for if they live in areas where these things are common events.

I've never understood why people who live in flood plains expect all of the other citizens to bail them out when a flood happens. I don't understand people building homes on cliffs by the sea, which are eroding even as they build. Even that exhualted greenie, John Denver hedged against oil prices by building a big underground tank on his Colorado property.

My brother, a judge and former practicing attorney and I go round and round on this subject. He just doesn't believe that people should be accountable for their actions. He's the judge you want if you shoot yourself in the foot and are sueing the gun manufacturer. If you want the view of the ocean and desire to live on a cliff, prepare yourself for the consequences of that decision. Don't look to me to bail you out with my tax money. I'll come and help you dig out, perform rescue and body recovery but, don't ask me to assist you in making the same dumb decision over and over again. I'm willing to take certain risks to save you, but not to abet your faulty decision making.

Maxparot: Someone still has to get some money into the hands of the wheat farmers to cover costs and provide the profit incentive to grow more wheat. And, again I maybe speaking through my hat, but aren't most of the wheat farms now owned by big corporations?

We're experiencing a problem of our own making and we're not gonna solve it in the near future. Even when the price per gallon drops, it's up another seven cents a gallon today in Anchorage, the basic problem will still exsist. We're dependant on someone else for our energy needs. As long as we let oil sit in the ground, let wind and tidal currents go unused, refuse to build nuclear plants and dams we'll be at the total mercy of those that have the product we require. I tend to forget about solar power because it isn't feasible in the northern latitudes. At least not yet.

Joe: If congress would simply ignore the naysayers and get the country moving away from dependance on foreign oil I'd be more interested in what they want to do and who they want to investigate. As it stands they're only looking for a way to raise tax income so they can spend more. Not lowering the price you and I pay for a gallon of gas. They simply see the the outrage against the oil companies as an easy way to get more money for government to spend. They're using us to further their goals not, to assist you and me. Believe me, the oil companies don't pay their taxes, you and I do. Same way you pay your landlord's or grocer's taxes.

[DUD]

Back in the early 70's, my Brother and I operated 8 Texaco and 1 Gulf Service Stations. We didn't have any self service then, We had people working. We paid for the gas as it went into the ground, and they called us when to go up or down. We made $.03 per gallon back then, of course We had a Mechanic on duty, plus car washes, and of course getting a $1.00 to fix a flat kept us in business. Oh for the good ole days, Bill