DVD Recorder Questions

[LarryG]

One of my VCRs recently died, and while I may replace it with another VCR, I'm sorta-kinda thinking about an inexpensive DVD recorder instead. (I'm not interested in a TiVO-type hard disk recorder at this point.)

Reading the BestBuy circular in Sunday's paper, I saw a notation that reads, "DVD Recorders do not copy copyrighted material." I presume this means it won't copy prerecorded DVDs and tapes? If so, that's not a problem, because that's not what I want to do ... I just want to record TV shows and set the discs aside until I can find time to watch them, which sometimes doesn't happen for weeks or even months.

My questions are:

1. Is a DVD recorder able, in fact, to record regular TV shows from cable or satellite, pretty much like a VCR?

2. Is direct, random access possible, as with a prerecorded DVD? That is, if I have more than one show on a given disc, can I jump directly to the beginning of any of them?

3. How many hours of programming will fit onto a single DVD?

4. Anything else I need to know?

Thanks very much ...

[LCHIEN]

Larry, the one i have, a cheap Liteon unit, basically is designed to replace a VCR - it has a tuner and multi-program timer and replicates most all of the features of a VCR incl pass thru antenna and channel 3 output plus other inputs/outputs.

[sacherjj]

Larry, I'll answer what I can. I do professional DVD Authoring, and have used stand alone DVD Recorders very little, but DVD burners and authoring extensively. I generally capture my video to a hard drive, edit, sync music, sound master, etc. before designing the menu stucture and authoring to a DVD.

1. Is a DVD recorder able, in fact, to record regular TV shows from cable or satellite, pretty much like a VCR?

There are two methods of getting video into the DVDR. Coax (broadcast frequencies) and Composite/S-Video or Component along with audio (video frequencies). A DVDR which has a tuner in it can handle OTA TV broadcasts or cable TV (non-digital cable) with no other hardware. If you want to use a Cable box or Satelite, you just hook up the video cables into the recorder.

Not all DVD recorders have cable or satelite box control. If you don't have this, you would have to tune the box to the channel you wish to record for the recorder. You will forget to do this, shows will be missed. Look for what is called an "IR Blaster" included with it. This plugs into the back of the DVDR and sticks over the cable or satelite box's IR detector (enough to the side that the original remote still works). When it is time to record something, the DVDR sends the number keypresses to the cable box and changes the channel. Unlike internal tuner systems on DVDR or TiVo, this is not 100% foolproof. When using IR Blaster on my TiVo, I had a few percent missed shows because of errors in the IR send. A serial cable control is a much better option.

2. Is direct, random access possible, as with a prerecorded DVD? That is, if I have more than one show on a given disc, can I jump directly to the beginning of any of them?

This depends on the recorder. Most will mark chapters at the start of each program. Then you can press the next chapter button to skip to the next time you started recording. To move within a show you need to fast forward or rewind. Some with RW capability allow you to mark indexes after the fact. Although there are more issues with RW disc being compatible with other DVD players. If you are recording and playing on the same machine, that isn't a problem. If you loan the DVDs to others to view, it might be.

3. How many hours of programming will fit onto a single DVD?

This depends on the compression selected. Most allow 1, 2, 4 and 6 hour recording, or similar ranges. For "DVD Quality" you need to use 1 or 2 hours per disc. If you go higher than that, you will start to see some blocking and digital degrading. It will still be possible to video the program, it will just not look as good. Also, motion will play a high factor in how the video looks at various compression levels. Football game in the 6 hour mode will have horrible smears, blurs and pixelation. A simple cartoon that doesn't move fast, however, may look fine. I would be willing to bet that you would not be happy with the video at above 2 hours per disc. The MPEG2 stream is compressed in realtime, so it is not as effecient compression as someone authoring a DVD for a movie release. Also, you will most likely be using a single layer disc (4.7 Gb) for recording, instead of the dual layer (8.5 Gb) that movies are generally release on.

4. Anything else I need to know?

DVD-R or DVD+R disc MAY NO LAST AS LONG as VHS tapes did. There is valid concern over dyes fading and such. If you do get one of these recorders, make sure to purchase discs in bulk for the best pricing. I've burned about 1,300 DVD-R Ritek discs from meritline.com. I look for their deals and purchase 100-200 discs. They often have specials down to 50 disc quantity. DVD Recordable discs come in many flavors. DVD-R and DVD+R are the two large divisions. DVD+R discs WILL NOT work in DVD-R recorders, unless that are dual mode recorders. (vice versa is also true.) There are also dual-layer (DL) disc out there. These are much more expensive than single layer discs, but starting to become more reasonable. It will give you nearly double the capacity of single layer, but you will pay a price premium for the recorder and discs. (Edit: These will only work if your recorder is Dual layer capable.)

[scorrpio]

Direct paste from BestBuy site, for a DVD recorder:

Built-in TV tuner lets you record directly from TV as you do on your VCR, except onto digital-quality DVD+R or DVD+RW discs; live and timer recording modes

16:9 widescreen, 4:3 and letterbox video modes for a range of viewing options

Dolby Digital and PCM recording.

On-screen disc title navigation, zoom, slow-motion forward, fast forward, rewind, repeat, frame by frame, go to, multiangle, program play and segment bookmarks for various navigation options.

Auto chapter creator makes easy search chapters on recorded DVDs
Guess this answers your questions 1 and 2.

4 recording settings let you record from 1 to 6 hours of video on a single DVD-R/RW or DVD+R/+RW disc
That should answer question 3. When I do home videos, a regular 4.7GB DVD will hold about an hour of video on highest quality setting.

About question 4: I am fairly sure none of these record High Definition programming. About the best input option I see is S-Vdeo. A spindle of 100 DVD+R (seems like the most compatible format these days) sells from $32 to $57(for Printable DVDs). Note: even at 6 hour/DVD setting, you are still fairly limited. By comparison, a hard-drive based recorder might hold several days worth of content, plus most such devices work directly with your cable box so you can specify which programs to record instead of having to set days, times, etc. Not sure what type of cable you got, but the DCR offered by Cablevision will switch channels on the box as needed (something a DVD recorder cannot do), and can record one channel while you are watching another. And later, you can always drop whatever programming you want to save to a DVD.

[Tom Miller]

I've looked into this off and on for a while; most recently around Christmas-time. I came close to pulling the trigger on the Tivo, but couldn't get past the monthly subscription -- can't really see what I'm getting for my money since I don't want/need all the bells and whistles.

Regarding recording times: even the Tivo's, which have 40hr and 80hr drives say that these times are for lowest quality. Divide by 3 or so to get better quality.

What I want is a hard drive-based system (with tuner) that can schedule recording like a VDR, and write to DVD. But if it's a DVD recorder only, it seems like you'd have to either give up quality for more recording time, or spoon-feed the thing DVDs.

But for the cost of what few such non-subscription systems there are on the market, one could almost get one of those media (home theater?) computers.

Regards,
Tom

[RayintheUK]

What I want is a hard drive-based system (with tuner) that can schedule recording like a VDR, and write to DVD.

That's just what I've got, Tom. Works like a VCR, records to hard drive.

If you want to keep a recording, insert a disc and it'll burn it for you. Option to edit prior to burning (remove commercials, etc.), then make a title structure. Great machine - the Panasonic DMR E95H - not cheap, but loads of neat features and a huge hard drive.

Ray.

[sacherjj]

Unfortunately, Tivo is dropping their lifetime subscription. I have had my TiVo for over 3 years now and my subscription was $250. It has cost me less than $10 per month and dropping with each month. For those who haven't used a true TiVo, they really don't know what they are missing. I can put a request for "Woodworking" and "HowTo" type of show and it will record whatever fits that. It will pickup This Old House, The Woodright Shop, New Yankee Workshop, Router Workshop, whatever fits. I do this sometimes and pickup shows that I didn't know existed. I don't have to program a thing. Or if I want to record New Yankee Workshop and it moves around time slots, I don't have to adjust anything, I just tell it to record that show. It is worth the less than $10 a month to not have to worry about anything. I watch what I want on TV when I want it. I have upgraded my TiVo to 300 hours, with two hard drives in it. It is often that I will record a SEASON of a show, before I start to watch it. If the show dies and is cancelled after 8 episodes, I just delete them, without having had to "get into" the characters and get ticked off. With DirecTiVo, it is a $5 fee for the TiVo DVR, per month. For this, you can record up to two shows at once. It is just great. I never program anything, I just find a show by name and say record them. It is so nice.

I would atleast spend the money for a DVD recorder with a hard drive setup. This way you don't have to just toss a bunch of discs as you finish watching them. But I haven't found anything better than TiVo, other than a custom built home media PC costing more in time and money than a TiVo and 5 years of subscription.

[dlminehart]

I agree with Joe. Tivo rocks! When I want to save something from the Tivo drive, I use the Tivo PC software to move it (wirelessly) from Tivo to my PC. Takes about 2 to 4 times the program length to do the move, but I typically start it before going to bed so it's ready when I get up. Then, I use the ($70) MyDVD software to decrypt the Tivo file and code it as a DVD file. I get 3 30-minute shows on a DVD. These take a while to burn as well, but I start them before I leave for work and they're ready when I get home. I can then free up the space on my Tivo drive.

I'd bought a Samsung DVD recorder (about $150) for Xmas, but returned it when it proved very fussy about which disks it would burn to, and the ones it did burn wouldn't work on both of my DVD players. The Tivo->PC->DVD method works OK for me.

Joe didn't mention Tivo's ability to quickly skip over commercials. I can't believe I used to spend almost 1/3 of my TV time assaulted by commercials for products and upcoming shows! Now, every station is like public television! Even if I'm thinking of watching something that's being broadcast, I'll typically wait about 10 minutes into the show before starting so I can skip the commercials.

Not to mention being able to sit down with others in my family on a given evening, easily scroll through the stored program lists, and jointly decide what we'll watch, in what order: "I've got to do some homework later, so could we all watch M.A.S.H. now? You can then leave the other stuff there for me to watch tomorrow."

And then there's the fun of just exploring the listings for the next 3 weeks, sorted by various categories (e.g., movies -> comedies, nature programming, etc.) Stuff I wouldn't notice if I had to dig through the newspaper's printed TV guide.

All for the price of a small pizza each month. And less fattening.

[sacherjj]

Having the TiVo remote in the garage, pausing and rewinding New Yankee Workshop. Very cool.

[maxparot]

TIVO Who needs another subscription based piece of technology. I've got a Home Theater PC It does TIVO without the subscription.

[AlanJ]

I agree .... TIVO ROCKS!!! I was skeptical at first about the monthly subscription... but it is the most worthwhile monthly 'entertinment cost' we have.
I have only one child still at home (18yo daughter). It's priceless to be able to hit pause when she comes home at 10pm and spend some family time talking with her about her day, and not miss the crucial scene from whatever show we're watching. as well as being able to
.... skip commercials
.... rewind and review a scene
.... get a season pass (which carries over to next season automatically)
.... take control over when and how we watch TV
... watch my favorite shows on MY schedule.

[LarryG]

I figured this thread would quickly turn into a TiVO lovefest. As I said in my OP, I am NOT interested in any type of hard disk recorder at this time.

I think something like Loring has is what I'd be looking for, assuming I choose to go the non-VCR route. My satellite receiver requires me to set the VCR to channel 4 for recording or pass-thru viewing, so a DVD recorder that cannot change the channels would be no different than what I'm doing now. Most shows I record are two hours or less, so that wouldn't be much of an issue, either.

The possible shorter life of DVDs wouldn't really be an issue in the short haul, but is something I'd have to think about for the long.

Thanks very much for the input!

[Kristofor]

I figured this thread would quickly turn into a TiVO lovefest. As I said in my OP, I am NOT interested in any type of hard disk recorder at this time.
<snip>
hanks very much for the input!

But that's what we're trying to tell you... You only think you're not interested, use a HTPC or TIVO for a month and you'd never give it up... When I fly home tonight I have no worries about missing the Sopranos (well I watched it in the hotel actually), BSG, or anything else I record. It is a fundamentally different (Better) way of consuming content. Commercial-less compilations of a whole season on one or two DVDs for a personal library is great too.

I also do have a standalone DVD player/burner but the only thing I use it for is converting home videos for people I don't like enough to do it right (on a PC) or material that's not that highly valued... The "off" brands of these devices (often more functional than the real brands due to easily accessible debug/test functions) are frequently less than $100 (mine was $38 on clearance) at places like Target or W*Mart.

-Kristofor

PS: dlminehart> You should be able to transfer much faster than that, I generally pull about 3.2Mbit from my DTivo's. You may want to try the updated 2.4 kernel and USB drivers if you're still running ones from a year or two ago...

[Tom Miller]

...You may want to try the updated 2.4 kernel and USB drivers...

I was just about to say that...

Larry, they're obviously coming for us, and there's more of them then us, lately. They're like Hare Krishna's at the airport (does that date me?); they only want us to experience the same happiness they've found.

Who do I give my money to?

Regards,
Tom

[mpc]

My folks gave me a combo VCR + DVD recorder unit (Panasonic) for Christmas. It's handy, works quite well. The DVD recorder side basically can be operated just like a fancy VCR too. It's compatible with VCR-Plus codes, has a multi-program memory of things to auto-record, etc, just like a quality VCR. It can even record some things to DVD media and other things to the VCR - I tell it which destination to use for each program when setting up the memory. I use a regular rooftop TV antenna; the DVD recorder tunes over-the-air channels just fine, just like my old VCR. It'll also copy tapes to DVD or vise-versa - as long as they are not copy protected (i.e. not store bought) shows/movies. I can copy anything I recorded easily.

There is a whole slew of different DVD media out there; not all media can do everything. The DVD-RAM media is roughly like a hard disk in capability - you can delete shows at random, not just in the order recorded. And the free space, even if it gets scattered about the disk, is still viewed as one big "free" spot when recording... with DVD-R/+R/-RW/+RW sometimes this isn't true: only what's free at the tail end of the disk is usable to record; free holes between programs (i.e. you deleted one show on the disk) aren't available to record onto yet. However, most PC computer DVD drives will not read the DVD-RAM media... some can but it's a rare feature right now. Stuff recorded by my Panasonic, after the -R/+R/-RW/+RW media is "closed" or "finalized" is viewable on PC DVD drives though.

One issue with DVD recording: when you're done recording something, the drive takes a few seconds to write some extra stuff... so you might miss the first minute of the next show if you're slow with the remote.

mpc

edit: just checked, my unit is the DMR-ES40V. I love it.