Frustrating fence fidgeting, fighting and fixing..

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  • oakchas
    Established Member
    • Dec 2002
    • 432
    • Jefferson City, TN, USA
    • BT3000

    Frustrating fence fidgeting, fighting and fixing..

    Finally!

    Okay... The problem was stated earlier... (fence requires adjustment after being locked down because it racks or twists AS it is being locked down... and/or one side of the "front block" (T-Bar) raises off the rails) and several of us had experienced the same problem, with several different conclusions.

    Any or all of the solutions may be right for you, if you are having this problem.

    Steps are listed in order of easiest to most difficult fix, with more tools (and daring) required for each succesive step.

    Front will, in all cases, mean closest to the operator's position in front of the saw... back or rear will mean outfeed side

    FRONT          overview drawing            BACK
    1. Check for wax buildup on the front rail, and the underside of the front block where it contacts the rail(front block is the black T shaped portion with lock handle).(Blue area in overview drawing)

    Especially check the rearmost top vertical surface of the front rail. There should be NO wax here, [u]not even a thin coat</u>. If you have waxed this portion of your rails, use naptha or mineral spirits to remove it. Because this is the area where the front block "bosses" contact the rail and that is what the fence locks to. Bare metal to metal contact here is the most secure.*

    Likewise if you have waxed that area, there will be wax on the "bosses" use the naptha or M.S. on them, too.

    (the bosses are the little "nubs" on the inner rear underside of the rail front block. There are 6 of them on the BT3000.

    2. If your fence still "climbs" on one side or the other of the front block when clamping it down after completing step 1, look at the 2 sliders on the underside of the fence. Are they each the same distance from the boss nearest each one (easiest to measure with a dial or digital caliper)? If they are not, attempt to adjust them so that they are. Because they are nylon, they may have compressed and distorted under the screw that holds them to the front block.

    If that is the case, it will be easier to adjust them and have them stay adjusted, if you purchase (or make) a square washer 25/64 square with a 3/16 hole in the center (I made mine out of a piece of scrap galv. tin, probably about 22g thickness).

    They should be adjusted so that they are each no more than a few thousandths (you could use a feeler guage for this) farther from the bosses than the width of the top rear of the front rail (the horizontal area between the T-nut slot and the rear topmost vertical surface of the front rail). This will allow the fence to slide freely, and yet be very close to parallel with the blade all the time.

    .002-.003" indicated by the blue area on the right, above.



    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;IF YOUR SAW IS STILL UNDER WARRANTY, YOU MAY WANT TO SERIOUSLY CONSIDER GETTING REPLACEMENT PARTS RATHER THAN CONTINUE...&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    3. Replace the fence and try it... Still racking? Goody!! you get to use more tools!
    Get out a flashlight (especially if your shop is dim) to see clearly what is happening. Remove the end caps from one end of both the front and rear rails (this makes it easier to see half of the operation).

    Now, move the fence (unlocked) down to the end without the caps and get in a chair facing the end of the front rail.

    Shine your flashlight at the front block where it meets the front rail. In the cut-out portion of the lower part of the front block, you can see the sliders in the T-track (they are about 1/2" in front of the bosses), where you can see the .002-.003 gap you left between the bosses and the top rear of the rail in step 2).

    Work the locking lever slowly into the down position watching the FRONT(closest to the normal operator's position) of the sliders. As you bring the lever down, is the front of one slider (or the other) contacting the front of the T-track slot BEFORE the fence is locked?
    Green area in the above drawing

    Do this check several times to be sure, looking at both ends of the front block. Also, if there's more than .002-.003" gap where the bosses are closest to the rear of the front rail, go back to step 2, and get the gap right, before proceding any further.

    If the sliders are contacting the front of the T-slot, remove the fence, turn it upside down, and remove the sliders, your washers and the factory screws, both sets of them.

    Place the fence (without the sliders) in its normal operating position on the saw, but don't slide it anywhere. Operate the locking lever.

    DOES THE FENCE STILL RACK OR TWIST?? You may be able to feel it easier than see it moving as you lock it down... If it moves a teeney bit (say, less that a 64th of an inch, or any amount you can live with (I went for .001"))... it's ok. If it doesn't move at all, you have found the problem!!![8D]

    The solution is to grind/file/sand off enough of the FRONT portion of the slider (that contacts the rear of the T-slot in the green area inthe above dwgs.) so that it will not touch that before the fence is locked.

    Re-install the sliders and check fence operation. If it all looks good, you are happy, etc., replace the rail end caps, check fence for squareness to blade, and make some sawdust... you are a woodworker, and an apprentice machinist now!

    STEP 4...
    &lt;Scooby Doo voice on&gt;
    RUH ROH!!!! [:0][B)]
    &lt;S.D.voice off&gt;

    If you've read this far, it means you are still having racking problems even with NO SLIDERS INSTALLED!!!
    This is Not Good... This is the same problem I had. I was fortunate, though, in that my saw came new with a fence that had no hook on the rear end of it... Ryobi sent me a complete fence. I got it in a couple of days. But that was over 4 years ago, when it was still the BT3000.

    I just replaced the front block with the one that was on the original fence... it works fine now...

    But, that doesn't help you...

    OK. Here's what I noticed when I put the old (but never used) front block on my fence:

    The bosses on the old (never used) one have a machined surface with ridges in them. The one that is racking has shiny/smooth bosses (from all the use). You could try filing the bosses equal amounts and just enough to give them a "gripping" surface. (* Oh, and remember what I said about the wax and metal to metal contact..? This is why! Recheck step 1? It couldn't hurt! Especially before taking a file to your fence...huh?)

    NOTE: I haven't yet done the filing myself, so I cannot say that it will work. But, I did try taping over the bosses with masking tape, and it reduced the racking (again, [u]no sliders installed</u>). So I think the increased friction may indicate that filing would work. I will try that and put results of that test and more drawings in the final/final report...

    Information on timing the rear hook for best results will be there, too! This has been an intense 3 days disassembling the fence and testing all the parameters... reassembling and testing... and doing the drawings... I know too much about the fence now... Unfortunately for the new guys, it's all applicable to the 3000.. and I don't know if it will apply equally to the 3100.

    Remember, I am not an engineer, and I don't even play one on TV... so this information may not include the best method for repairing your saw... It did work for me, though. And, I hope it helps you.

    Charlie
  • pnctar
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2003
    • 537
    • Arlington, TX, USA.
    • Ryobi BT3000

    #2
    Hey Sam ... think ya need to put this one in the FAQs!!

    Steve
    Shadow box?! and you want it when?
    Steve
    There are no mistakes in woodworking, only opportunities to reevaluate the design! - Jim Tolpin

    Comment

    • Sam Conder
      Woodworker Once More
      • Dec 2002
      • 2502
      • Midway, KY
      • Delta 36-725T2

      #3
      quote:Originally posted by pnctar

      Hey Sam ... think ya need to put this one in the FAQs!!

      Steve
      Shadow box?! and you want it when?
      Let's let it "cook" for a while and make sure we don't miss out on any good followups...

      Sam Conder


      "Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat" --Theodore Roosevelt
      Sam Conder
      BT3Central's First Member

      "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas A. Edison

      Comment

      • oakchas
        Established Member
        • Dec 2002
        • 432
        • Jefferson City, TN, USA
        • BT3000

        #4
        Updated the above with Pix!

        Oh yeah, and I said I'd explain a method for "timing" the fence, after you've done all of the above tuning, fussing, fidgeting...

        Okay, the fence is supposed to do three things as the locking lever is being lowered. They are supposed to happen in this order:

        1. Fence is drawn square to blade by pulling the bosses in contact with the rear uppermost vertical surface of the fence (this eliminates the blue area in the pictures above, and gives metal to metal contact.

        2. Fence is locked at the front in this position. This happens as the plate(#27 on page 44 of the BT3000 manual) contacts the front of the frontmost vertical surface on the front rail.

        3. Fence is locked at the rear in this position. This happens as the hook is raised into the bottom front of the rear rails' T-slot.

        There is not much you can do to affect steps 1 and 2... Step three is easy to control.


        To control step three:

        1. Loosen the screw at the top of the rear clamper several turns (best done with the fence in the proper position on the rails).

        2. Engage the locking lever (push down on it) just until you cannot move or wiggle the front block with reasonable force.

        The fence should now be locked down at the front block but not at the rear. You should be able to deflect or push the rear of the fence from side to side easily (but don't move it more than a 1/8" either way). If not, loosen the screw at the top of the rear clamper until you can.

        3. Once you have assured that the rear is loose, and the front doesn't move, screw the top screw of the clamper in until you cannot wiggle the rear of the fence anymore...

        Note the position of the lock lever in the front of the fence. You do not need to push it down any further than this when setting and locking your fence from now on. It may be at 2 o'clock or 3o'clock or whatever... it is locked down... further pressing the lock lever down only increases strain on the components unneccesarily.

        HTH

        Charlie

        Comment

        • oakchas
          Established Member
          • Dec 2002
          • 432
          • Jefferson City, TN, USA
          • BT3000

          #5
          I'm now officially done with this topic... I won't edit any more... So, if you haven't yet done so, and even if you have.... Now's the time to print the first post to file with your owners manual... or wait until it's cooked a bit more as Sam suggested!

          HTH somebody, It sure helped me learn all about the fence!

          Charlie

          Comment

          • Troy Webber
            Established Member
            • Jan 2003
            • 115
            • Normal, Illinois, USA.

            #6
            Good work Charlie.I will be printing a copy to go with my saw manual.I also think that this will be good for the FAQs section.
            troy

            Comment

            • Black wallnut
              cycling to health
              • Jan 2003
              • 4715
              • Ellensburg, Wa, USA.
              • BT3k 1999

              #7
              Charlie,

              Great job with really great diagrams! but,
              quote:The solution is to grind/file/sand off enough of the rear portion of the slider (that contacts the rear of the T-slot in the green area inthe above dwgs.) so that it will not touch that before the fence is locked.
              Why would you not remove material from the front of the slides?

              For those considering using a file on their bosses (last step), get a needle file and gently slide the file sideways along each boss that is to say in the same direction as the lines on the file! This should place small horizontal lines on each boss which will most likely give it more grip without removing any material. Whatever you do try doing this before actually removing material from the front block. This action does not remove material it just moves what is there.

              marK in WA and Ryobi Fanatic Association State President ©
              My Site
              Donate to my Tour de Cure


              marK in WA and Ryobi Fanatic Association State President ©

              Head servant of the forum

              ©

              Comment

              • oakchas
                Established Member
                • Dec 2002
                • 432
                • Jefferson City, TN, USA
                • BT3000

                #8
                MarK,
                quote:Why would you not remove material from the front of the slides?
                Darnit! You're right! It should be [u]Front</u> I have changed it... I had quadruple (and more!) checked for proper orientation... So, you made a liar out of me... I went back and re-edited so that those who save it, save it right...

                I also agree with your method of filing the bosses... Another altenative would be to use a center punch (for metal) to "prick" indentations in the bosses which would have the same effect.. That of giving them some "tread" with which to grab the rail... Without removing any material.

                The front block is (I'm pretty sure) not aluminum but a Zinc or zinc alloyed with aluminum... This gives it strength closely approacing cast iron, with less weight... But the bottom line is that it should be a bit easier to machine than C. I. though tougher than Al.

                Thanks for catching my error marK! It was alot of work to get that all done with the drawings and all, and I do want it to be helpful... not harmful!

                Charlie

                Comment

                • JimD
                  Veteran Member
                  • Feb 2003
                  • 4187
                  • Lexington, SC.

                  #9
                  Charlie,

                  You did a nice job on this post. Your illustrations are great and your explanation of how the rip fence works seems good to me.

                  I will add a few personal observations. First, the plastic "slider" pieces are much too soft to affect the lockup very much. They may be able to make the fence shift a little but I deliberately mis-aligned them trying to affect lockup (before I understood how to true the fence) and they just stifted back into rough alignment with the intended lockup alignment of the fence front casting.

                  Second, zinc is a bad material structurally and I don't think it is included in a structural way in any part of a fine saw like the BTs. Zinc always permanently deforms when loaded. Aluminum does not.

                  Third, I have noticed that my rip fence shifts during lockup whenever it is not already square to the rail. I am not saying that is all of everybody's problem - just observing that is something that causes my rip fence to shift position during lockup. It is a good thing but can be annoying.

                  Keep up the good work!

                  Jim

                  Comment

                  • oakchas
                    Established Member
                    • Dec 2002
                    • 432
                    • Jefferson City, TN, USA
                    • BT3000

                    #10
                    Thanks, Jim!

                    I agree about the sliders' softness compared to the Al. But, when they are screwed so tightly to the front block at the factory that they are deformed and cut where the screw heads go, they can cause one side or the other of the front block and the fence to "rack" up off the front rail as you are locking down the fence. Troy had that problem... and somebody else, I think, made wooden sliders.

                    My fence would rack even without the sliders installed (yes, it will lock down without them)! And I really think my shiny bosses are to blame for that...

                    Just clarifying...

                    Thanks again for the compliments,

                    Charlie

                    Comment

                    • Troy Webber
                      Established Member
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 115
                      • Normal, Illinois, USA.

                      #11
                      Yeah,my slides were screwed down so tightly from the factory that the head was countersunk into the plastic a good bit.There was no way that my sliders would self adjust to allow for a good lockup.I do think that I will buy some new sliders since I did such a hack job on mine to get it working.I cut them back more than I really needed.When the fence is unlocked,it has a little too much slop.

                      Comment

                      • Dutch
                        Forum Newbie
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 18
                        • Clinton Corners, NY, USA.

                        #12
                        Charlie, over the next weekend, I am going to pull out the BT3K rails and put the BT3100 rails back in and go through your procedure to see if I can fix my problem. Although right now I am happy with the BT3K rails installed, I am very curious.

                        BTW - what do you use to produce your graphics?

                        Dutch
                        If you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got.
                        Dutch
                        If you do what you always did, you\'ll get what you always got.

                        Comment

                        • oakchas
                          Established Member
                          • Dec 2002
                          • 432
                          • Jefferson City, TN, USA
                          • BT3000

                          #13
                          Dutch,
                          Glad those 3K rails are working out for you... Let us know how your trials go with the 3100 rails in place...

                          My drawings are all based (measurements) on my BT3000, and I used DesignCad 3000 to produce them. DesignCad has a newer version out... I think you can get it for ~$69.00 thru Amazon.com

                          Good luck,
                          Charlie

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