Questions about Turning

[Mrs. Wallnut]

Ok, since I have been wanting to get out into the shop again and do some things I have thought about doing some turning and would like to start turning some pens in the future after I get the hang of using the lathe. But what I am wanting to know is, 1). Is there a good beginer book to get, or is there a post on this forum that would be of help.

I know that the cost is going to be one of those growing things but I am thinking if maybe I can make our current lathe work and maybe replace the lathe once I have everything.

To begin with I don't need anything to fancy or expensive, at least I don't think I do, just some suggestions from the more experienced turners on this big forum family.

Thanks guys

[dkerfoot]

I am a fairly new turner and enjoying it more than I expected.

I find that videos are much more helpful than books. Some things you really need to see to "get". Thankfully, there are many videos available on youtube, etc. I did also check out a couple of Richard Raffin's books from the library. The FWW site has good info also if you are a member.

I started with a bunch of 10" sections of 2" x 2" and just started playing with different shapes. I don't think anything can replace time spent laying steel to spinning wood. Now I have been making some small bowls.

.

[Whaler]

Hi Melissa
Pens are fun, bottle stoppers are fun turning is fun.

PSI has a free pen turning DVD www.pennstateind.com/store/dvd.html

Have Fun

[Uncle Cracker]

The Penn State DVD is a good one. You should join the forum over at www.penturners.org also. There is great info there, and the members are very helpful to noobs (although a little salty at times). Online instructions can be found at www.howtomakepens.com and you can take a hands-on class at most Woodcraft stores. Enjoy!

[RayintheUK]

I did a page (for another Forum member) on the pen-turning process a while back - it's here if you think it might help.

Ray.

[leehljp]

I will put my 2 yen in.


FINISHES:
First of all, don't just go for the Store items just because they sell them. The wax finishes don't finish. It wipes off or wears off in a week or so. Some people like a natural finished pen and the feel of the wood, but they get dirty in a few months like the edges of kitchen cabinets by the handles.

There are several ways to really finish pens and each has its advantages and drawbacks.
CA (cyanoacrylate/super glue):
Advantages - quick finish, strongest, most durable, HIGH shine; Hardens soft woods (referred to as stabilizing), protects well.
Disadvantages: for some a high learning curve, fumes burn eyes, Sticks to fingers, Burns fingers; A few turners view it as "plasticky" looking BUT it is the most requested finish at sales; Some people HIGHLY allergic (yours truly - but I use mask and have a Dust Collector at the lathe.)

Lacquer (Deft) and others: Advantage - Less plasticky looking and more natural.
Disadvantage: takes 2 hours to set and 24 - 48 hours to cure for final sanding.

Polyurethane (hard floor type) Similar to Lacquer. On medium and dark woods gives a good sheen and feel.
Disadvantage: tend to yellow white/holly (one of my favorites); 2 to 4 hours to set, 24 to 48 to finish

Acrylic and acetone:plexiglass strips placed in a glass jar filled with acetone will dissolve. Some people use this instead of CA. Less smell, less burning of the eyes, less allergenic. Similar properties to CA in finishing. Quick setup quick finish. High shine.
Disadvantage: high learning curve for application; must make your own; a few turners say it looks plasticky.


People with considerable experience in making, finishing and selling pens will tell you that "people and pens" are MUCH harder on finishes than the finish of fine furniture or floors or walls. Sweaty palms and humid shirt pockets are very caustic to finishes, plus the heat in a car, cold winter, humidity changes play more havoc on pen finishes than in an ordinary house, and finishes will degrade faster on pens as a result. Therefore, the most durable of paints and finishes are recommended. Use waxes over the finishes above but not under them.


BUSHINGS and tubes: When you purchase pen kits, be sure to order a set of bushings for each KIND of pen you wish to make. ALWAYS order at least one set of extra tubes for each kind of pen you order. Two sets are better and tubes are cheap, so it helps to have a set on hand.

GLUEING THE TUBES: Most people use super glue (CA) to glue the tubes in. IF you go this route, use Thick CA as it allows a few seconds before setting up and allows more time to insert the tube BEFORE it sticks.
Some people use Gorilla Glue but it is very messy. Must allow overnight to use.
Epoxy: 5 minute if doing one or two pens/ Use 30 minute epoxy if you are gluing up 4 or more several pens blanks at once.
HINT: Find some old playdough or find some plumber's putty and stop up one end of the tubes so that glue does not get inside the tube. Insert the puttied end into the blank. Hardened Glue inside the tube can cause big problems during assembly.


PENS: Most people start with "Slimlines" because they are the cheapest. But IMO and several other people consider the slimlines harder to make than other pens. One piece pens are easy to start with such as Sierras, Aeros, Carberras, Elegant beauties. Be sure to order bushings for each model.
Cigars are a popular pen that many people move up to after slimlines, because they are moderately priced and offer a more advanced look over slimlines. Beware that it has 4 separate bushings and they have to be done in the right order.

PEN MILL / PEN VISE: A pen mill or sander or something is needed to make sure the pen blank and tube are square before adding the bushings and assembling the pen.
A pen vice is necessary to hold the blank to drill an aligned hole into the blank. IF you don't use a vise, you will find that blanks will have off centered holes and you will find that some blanks will burst/blow out!



Use a Mandrel or go Mandrel-less:
One of the problems in turning pens is that pens often come out - "out of round" and the majority of the reasons for this is associated with a mandrel. For this reason, Many people on the pen turing forum are forgoing (eliminating) the mandrel for turning pens. It is referred to as Mandrel-less, No Mandrel or Turning Between Centers. Below are links to some picts and discussions on this.

Below is a re-post from a pen turning forum on the advantages of not using a mandrel. IF the info below is "too much information" skip it and read it later - some months down the road. I used to recommend this after people got into turning and started having different problems. Then a couple of months ago, two people asked why this was not recommended to beginners. So, included in the information below is why it has not been suggested to beginners in the past:



http://www.penturners.org/forum/show...t=40005&page=2

The postings:

People hate change. The learning curve of overcoming all the little problems associated with a mandrel is a little high. (OK, quite high for a beginner.) However, once you become proficient enough to recognize just where a problem might be, you don't want to let go (and therefore) learn a new method. Call it the Stockholm syndrome.

. . . Because the mandrel has been around for a good while - if we were to just come out and say - Don't go the mandrel route, it is too complicated - then we would probably be in for a fight and Jeff would throw all of us off! And besides, when you as a beginner see all the catalogs, online store set ups and videos that show "mandrels" - would you believe a few others who said "Don't go this way, Go mandrel-less"? People generally follow the larger crowd or commercial entities as Frank pointed out.

Most people that ask about it on this forum - think that it is complicated! Why? Because mandrels are complicated with their own inherent problems. Why believe that more precision can be more simple? Most people equate higher precision with more complication!

In this case, less IS more!


Problems related to mandrels:

1. Bent mandrel for one reason on another.
2. Mandrel flex from being too tight against the tail stock.
3. Mandrel flex from too much pressure of the chisel on hard wood, especially for beginners.
4. Mandrel / bushing fittings being slightly loose fitting will cause OOR.

Bushings with the hole drilled off center will cause the same problem on the mandrel-less method as it will for the mandrel, however it will be amplified a bit more on the mandrel.

Tail stock out of alignment will still cause problems.

However, when you eliminate 1, 2, 3 & 4 above, the difficulty in finding an OOR problem is GREATLY reduced.

ADDED BENEFIT of Mandrel-LESS: after bringing the blank to size or near size, take the bushings off and finish sanding to size, as measured by calipers. NO gray Bushing Sanding dust on the blank! Apply the finish with this set up (no bushings) and there will be no problems with CA/Finish/bushings sticking to the blank.



Mandrel setup versus Mandrel-less:

Steps for Mandrel:

1. put bushings on the blank
2. put spacer bushing on mandrel,
3. place bushing/blank on mandrel
4. add another spacer
5. place and add nut and tighten
6. pull up tail stock and check as to just right tightening.
Turn

Remove to check and see if it is OOR anywhere, replace and go through the 6 steps again.


For no mandrel/mandrel-less/Turn Between Centers:
1. add bushings to blank
2. put bushing/blank on lathe and hold
3. pull up tailstock and lock
Turn

Remove to see if it is OK
repeat with three steps OR leave bushings OFF and:
1. place on lathe
2. finish sanding to size without bushings and check with calipers
3. Apply finish and sand, wax, buff

Much less steps on single blank pens. DOUBLE for two part pens which makes it come out about the same, but with less chances of OOR from mandrel related issues.

Where this REALLY speeds things up is the quickness with which you can remove and check a blank for size or for how it will look against the pen kit parts, and then replacing. On some pens, I take the blank off two or three times to check something. It takes less than 10 seconds to do this with mandrel-less but 30 - 45 seconds or more (take off and put back) with mandrel set up, and more if you drop a spacer!

PICTURE OF TURNING WITHOUT A MANDREL - scroll to the second picture and on down to the others. The last picture shows turing without the bushings for finishing.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/show...hlight=skogger

IF YOU USE A MANDREL, you will need a 60° live center: Most wood working lathes come with a live center on the tail stock for use on wood. This is the "point" that sticks into the wood and holds it up while turning. "Mandrels" are metal, not wood. Therefore the little dimples in the end of the mandrel require a tail stock point that fits it - called a 60° (60 degree) live center - which are common on metal turning lathes. If you don't use a 60 degree live center on the mandrel, you will very quickly find that the pen blanks are out of round on the tail stock end. You need a 60° live center to use with a mandrel.

As a note, you will need to order a "Dead Drive center" if you are going mandrel-less.

Dead Drive center: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Carb...nter-MT2/H7967
60° Live center: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Live-Center-MT2/G5686 (a little expensive and they can be had for cheaper at other places.

[leehljp]

One more thing and 1 more yen:

ONE MORE TOOL - CALIPERS: Learn from the beginning to measure the size of the turned blank with calipers. DON'T turn to size based on the bushing. The Nib end (where the ball point comes out) the center band and the clip end - measure each with a calipers, mark them down and then turn the blank to that size and apply finish.

. . . the reasons: many people turn the blank down to the bushings for size and often hit the bushing with the chisel. Dulls the chisel a little, - and in making 20 pens or so, the size of the bushing will be reduced by .01 inch, at least. BUT if you determine the size by using calipers, it doesn't matter what happens to the bushings. Also, as you sand the blank down to final size, you WILL sand the bushings a little and eventually the bushings will be .01 or .02 inch smaller than the nib, center band and clip end.

MOST people consider bushings as "consumables" and the average is 1 set of bushings per 20 to 40 pens. BUT, if you use calipers, you can extend the use of bushings even longer. AND if you use mandrel-less and remove the bushings for "finishing" they will last a lifetime.

[Uncle Cracker]

Hank, that is a very thorough and concise stack of advice... Well done!

[Mrs. Wallnut]

Thanks guys I am very grateful for all the information that you have given me. Mark and I were talking this morning and he asked if I REALLY wanted a lathe and I said that I do but that it can wait till around summer time when I have a little more time to be out in the shop. Right now I would only have the weekends to be out in the shop and I would like to be able to spend some more time turning than just a couple of days a week. So I am thinking that this spring/summer we are going to be getting me a new lathe ( BIG SMILE).

[Russianwolf]

what lathe do you guys have now?

Hanks pretty much nails everything. I don't think that he mentioned that you can't turn slimlines without a mandrel using the stock bushings. The bushings needed to turn without a mandrel have a stepped appearance, one side actually slides into the tube of the pen blank. This is a problem with all the 7mm pens (slimline, Euro, etc.). Custom bushings are available (which I highly recommend once you decide to keep making pens as they are MUCH better quality) for those and all the others as well, but can be a bit pricey.

Bushings are a wearable item in most cases, but I've noticed that the custom bushings are made of much tougher stainless steal compared to the stock bushings, so they last MUCH longer. I'm still on my first set of the 3 types I got.

and before long you'll have a bunch of these laying around

[dabeeler]

Be sure to check out the library on the Penturners.org website, it contains a lot of valuable information. Here is a link to some good tutorials on Ed Davidson's (Yo-Yo Spin) website - http://yoyospin.com/tutorials/

[leehljp]

Great set of pens Mike! Great fit and finish!

Question for you, and others: When you make a batch and one particular pen stands out - to you - do you decide to keep it for yourself, or at least use if for a while?

I kinda have that problem. But when I am working on a single pen or two for specific people, I do let those go.

[Uncle Cracker]

Question for you, and others: When you make a batch and one particular pen stands out - to you - do you decide to keep it for yourself, or at least use if for a while?

I have a display for one-offs or for the last examples of a limited edition. If I do something made-to-order for somebody, I go through with giving to them, even if I wish I didn't have to. Some I just hate to part with.