Pens and bowls- how much to charge?

[BigguyZ]

I just started turning, and already from what I have brought into work I've gotten some interest. I'm thinking of starting a side business as a source of supplemental income...

What is a reasonable amount to charge for bowls and pens? I don't need to make a ton. I enjoy doing it, so I don't feel the need to charge too much. On the other hand, I don't want to not get paid what my work is worth...

Any thoughts/ suggestions?

[Warren]

You are going at this backwards. It's not what do you charge but; what will someone pay. The customer determines the value or worth, not the seller or maker. Look around and see what similar items are going for in the local markets.

Does your product measure up? Is it a product that someone will want or need? Check the competition. Bics are pretty cheap. Why would someone want a pen, hand made by you? Beauty? Workmanship? Prestige? Quality of performance? Are you going to be using the same components as other makers? Or, better, smoother writing nibs?

If you are making a product that people have to have you can charge whatever you wish. If it's a product that is not a necessity, you can only charge what people will pay. Although, you could make one pen and price it at a million dollars. Sell one and you are pretty well set. The problem is that you have a million dollar inventory of one item and it's sitting on the shelf.

You might need to under price your product and slowly build a demand. Then you can raise your prices. Raise them until they no longer sell and then back the price down a bit.

Lots of factors to consider when pricing. The most important is; what will a customer pay for a pen made by you? The market determines the worth. What you feel it is worth is of no consequence and shouldn't enter into the equation.

[RayintheUK]

Warren is exactly right, but let's not forget that there must be a minimum limit, even if it's only a mental one. For example, if a bowl blank costs $10 and you spend time turning it into a bowl, you wouldn't want to sell it for less than $10 would you? Personally, I'd sooner give it away. The same rule applies to pens - cost of blanks, pen kits, finish - it all adds up.

My initial rule of thumb was to calculate costs as accurately as I could, then double them. Don't try to cost your own time into the equation, especially early on - you'll get depressed very quickly! If you're using presentation cases for pens that are bought in, don't include these in the equation, just add on the actual cost - there's no need to profit out of the case, IMO.

Most people (of the non-woodworking variety, anyway) have no idea what materials cost and even less idea about how long it takes to produce a craft item, such as a bowl or pen. They'll buy it if they like it, either for its unique appeal, or because it genuinely attracts them.

However, whatever you put up for sale must be absolutely flawless. On no account include anything that has a flaw, even though it's at a low (or lower) price. You really don't want the buyer (or a more knowledgeable friend) spotting the flaw later, because your name will then be associated with flawed production - not good for repeat orders.

I turned some pens a while back and during the process my postman (mail man) came into the shop and watched for a while - he does this regularly and is very interested and inquisitive, aside from being a pleasant guy. The next day, I picked out a really nice pen and gave it to him. He was really impressed and delighted and I knew that he simply couldn't resist using it to get people to sign for parcels and showing it off generally. He brought me all sorts of orders - great as it was approaching Christmas too.

All this rambling does is to reinforce the original point by Warren - it's all about what people will pay, nothing else.

Ray.

[Warren]

Ray, the postman gift was a brilliant piece of marketing.

[p8ntblr]

The next day, I picked out a really nice pen and gave it to him. He was really impressed and delighted and I knew that he simply couldn't resist using it to get people to sign for parcels and showing it off generally. He brought me all sorts of orders - great as it was approaching Christmas too.
Ray.

Absolutely brilliant way of marketing.

[ejs1097]

All that said and worthwhile it doesn't help you much come up with a actual amount. Try some research to find other hand made wooden pens on the market and their cost. Ebay, internet. Fancier pens at Staples, Office Max, etc to get a starting idea. Otherwise how do you know what your market will bear. You could ask the interested folks at work what they'd pay but the sampling would be small to make a determination.

Ray mentioned selling in after market cases. Perhaps an add on could be to make cases out of the same wood/finish for a match and offer as a pair or just the pen.

Be careful at work. If you start low to get someone to buy the 'first' pen, everyone will know that price and you won't be able to raise it to a more reasonable rate in your office. At least without making co-workers mad.

I'd fine other examples as a starting point, see how that fits with your cost and if it's worth your while, adjust as you think you need to.

[Warren]

Short course:

1. Determine your market: Low cost, cheap pens? Exotic woods, high end compontents? Basic style or something original? Need for your product? Desire for your product? Is the desire there or do you have to build it. Ray went out and built a desire in people to own his product.

2. Marketing: Bulk sales? Individual sales (flea markets, door to door, co-op stores, etc.) Advertising? Inventory - finished pens and components, packaging. Selling low, or indeed giving samples to people free is a great way to develop a market. A few well placed samples, to people who can show off your work is in a good light is a good tactic. If building on spec, a good way to sell would be to hook up with someone who sells at open markets or bazaars, and that you can trust. Give them a percentage of each item sold and let them feel out the market for you.

Do not undersell the packaging. Packaging is very important in sales. Shoddy packaging means shoddy merchandise.

The big question is: are you making a couple of pens you want to sell here and there; or are you trying to pay for your addiction to turning or add to your dispoable income. If you are contemplating selling a pen now and then, spend some time to build some inventory and then go with the bazaar, open market idea.

If you are looking at bringing in a few hundred dollars a month . . . sit down and develop a marketing plan. Figure your costs, sales potential, time investment, etc. Show it to a professional, a banker friend or somesuch. Revise the plan, have a beer and then, if this is what you really want to do, spend a good amount of what was once free time, making pens and merchandising them, get to work!

Manufacturing: Are you willing to put in the time to build an inventory or do you want to build an individual pen on spec or as a commission. When working for a commission you have to be willing to dicker. Get your costs up front so that if the customer reneges you haven't lost, but for your time.

Not a full course, but it should provide plenty of food for thought.

[RayintheUK]

All that said and worthwhile it doesn't help you much come up with a actual amount.

OK, ejs1097, I'll try to be more specific. I'd suggested a minimum value of double the materials cost + the case. Looking on Woodcraft's site, it breaks down something like this (average approximate values):

Pen kit $4.00
Pen Blank $1.00
Finishing $1.00
Case $4.00

Therefore, minimum charge should be ($4 + $1 + $1) x 2 + $4 = $16.00 per pen (in presentation case), $12 minimum pen only.

For bowls, the same formula can be applied, although with no added case costs, but x 2 for finishing.

I thought that it was already widely accepted that the upper end is what people will pay, but before anyone gets to that stage, reputation is required for value to be appreciated. If I remember correctly, the OP has only just started pen turning. The correct time to offer work for sale is when it is at marketable quality. Like most craftsmen or women, things improve, often rapidly, but one thing is for sure - the buyer won't make any allowances for skill level and it can be counter-productive to offer items that are less than perfect.

The big question is: are you making a couple of pens you want to sell here and there; or are you trying to pay for your addiction to turning or add to your disposable income. If you are contemplating selling a pen now and then, spend some time to build some inventory and then go with the bazaar, open market idea.

This part of the response from Warren is crucial advice and is the pivotal point when considering crossing over from hobbyist to production turner. The OP said "I'm thinking of starting a side business as a source of supplemental income," which I interpret as "I love doing it, but it would be nice to get some / all of the costs back."

Once you step over that hobbyist line, practically everything changes. Sure, you can save loads by bulk buying and you can even strike good deals with some retail outlets, but that turns a flat green hobbyist pasture into a craggy mountain to climb. Production turning is, I'm sorry to say, very boring, even without the "added joy" of running accounts for the IRS or whoever. Believe me, turning to meet a deadline, or to fill an order, especially when you're not in the mood to turn, is to be avoided wherever possible.

Ray.

[Warren]

Ray, I'm betting we've both "been there - done that - bought the tee shirt." I still do it, but I've pulled back a bit. I make only what I can sell at holiday bazaars, so I have nine months to build what I want for inventory. Some months I make five or six items, other months I may make one, if that. It all depends on what else is going on in my life. I only take a commission that appeals to me and leave myself plenty of time for delivery.

[Russianwolf]

Here's what someone else is charging. You can at least get an idea from this.

http://www.pensbygreg.com/misc.html

[guycox]

I think he's too inexpensive even for direct sales with no credit card or eBay fees. If this were a craft show where he needed to cover the overhead of travel, lodging, booth fees, taxes; he'd be losing money (even on volume).

Gall up a mandrel, drop a bit, blow out a blank, drop and lose a kit part in the shavings, or shread of belt and you're added to the expense column. Power, dust collection, abrasives, adhesives -- even if you figure the labor at minium wage, $19.00 is probably the break even point on a slimline pen.

[BigguyZ]

My main issue is that I like to turn, but I can't afford to make 20 pens just for myself. If I could even get my money out of it, it'd be worth it to me. Then again, if I can make even a tiny profit, so much the better. But at $10/ pen, I can't afford to make more unless someone starts buying them from me.

For those of you that sell your stuff- where do you sell your wares?

[SteveR]

I can not contribute to the pricing conversation, but thought this interesting.
I get the fountain pen hospital catalog (you can too....upper right hand corner - a freebie) and you can see what the rich and famous buy each other.
They enclose a pricing sheet...OMG when you see it. I about fell over! It is only sent out maybe twice a year.

http://www.fountainpenhospital.com/I...e/showcase.asp
If link does not work I tinyurl'd it. Sorry..can not figure out how to do it otherways.
http://tinyurl.com/2tc6ml
The above shows the "wooden" ones I searched for. And these are the "cheapie" ones. IIRC, the most expensive one I have seen in the catalog was something like 7-8K.....yes, that is $7-8,000 US. WAY outta my price range...as I am kinda a frugal bic type person. For that kind of $$ it should draw solid gold lines..............

Steve