Here we go, CPSC wants safer table saws

[Cochese]

If you are not able to keep it from being personal with hold your comments.

Factual comments by definition are not personal. Not trying to start anything, but actual facts about the saw, the technology and the inventor seem to be embargoed on a lot of sites if they aren't in a positive light. I'd hate to see that here.

[gsmittle]

Discussion of CPSC mandating sawstop technology quickly turns this into a political debate just as much as gun control, abortion, women's sufferage and the consequence of them being allowed to drive..... you should get my point.

I get your point—my woman makes me suffer! (Sorry, couldn't resist. )

Perhaps what we'll see, rather than mandating a specific technology, is more of what we're already seeing—easily removed & replaced splitters, riving knives, etc. I would not be surprised if push sticks or some Grrrripper-like device were included with each new saw purchase, much like jointers come with push pads nowadays.

Perhaps there will be a range of measures, from push sticks included with el cheapo benchtop saws all the way to SS technology.

g.

[Richard in Smithville]

While I agree that SS technology is fantastic, I just don't agree with how the product is marketed. (I had a salesman tell me that my shop practices are unsafe simply because I don't own a SS). It's not even the idea of making such technology mandatory on table saws. I don't like the the idea of making a monolopy manditory.

There are so many cuts in our education system now, it would be nice if SS was offered at cost or better to the schools. That would certainly show concern for safety over concern for profit. It would also offer a chance to adjust opinions on Mr. Gass.

[cabinetman]

FROM THE ARTICLE:

Stephen Gass, who invented technology that stops blades when body parts are detected, persuaded CPSC to grant his petition for rulemaking during the Bush administration. But CPSC never drafted rules, so a new vote would now be required.

"There's a pattern of injury, a safety technology that can address it, and it's affordable," says Sally Greenberg, executive director of the National Consumers League, which is joining Gass to push for a federal rule requiring all table saws to detect flesh and stop blades before they cut into it.

The technology has patents. I'm sure there's more to the technology than what was available at "Radio Shack". The inventor likely spent a great deal of money developing the technology. Patents have their purpose.

FROM THE ARTICLE:

Gass acknowledges his saws with the technology are at the upper end of the price range, but says the price is nothing compared with the cost and lifelong pain of hand injuries.

I agree 100% with that. It's a business. I wish I invented it. On another forum two members purchased Saw Stops after cutting off fingers. If I had to buy another table saw it would be a Saw Stop. If the cost is more, it can't compare with the extended costs of an injury. The question of how many injuries are the fault of non-equipped saws...I would say little to none. Operators of all ages and experience will continue to stick their fingers into a spinning blade. It's obvious from the statistics that whatever caused those "accidents" some device would have compensated for operator lack of concentration and inattention. Not a bad idea.

This whole controversy about the cost reminds me of the Fram oil filter advertising. It goes on to say something like pay more now, or pay later.

.

[radhak]

Any factual information should be allowed.

Sawstop = Stephen Gass. You really can't discuss a story about one without the other.

If you are not able to keep it from being personal with hold your comments.

I am unsure how it is personal if it is not addressed to anybody on this forum... ??

Steve Gass' actions impact us all as woodworkers, and to our detriment, and that is bound to show in our comments. And he's neither a politician nor a religious figure, so what gives? We have been critical of the likes of Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in here in the past and not seen a problem...

[Cochese]

FROM THE ARTICLE:

Stephen Gass, who invented technology that stops blades when body parts are detected, persuaded CPSC to grant his petition for rulemaking during the Bush administration. But CPSC never drafted rules, so a new vote would now be required.

"There's a pattern of injury, a safety technology that can address it, and it's affordable," says Sally Greenberg, executive director of the National Consumers League, which is joining Gass to push for a federal rule requiring all table saws to detect flesh and stop blades before they cut into it.

The technology has patents. I'm sure there's more to the technology than what was available at "Radio Shack". The inventor likely spent a great deal of money developing the technology. Patents have their purpose.

FROM THE ARTICLE:

Gass acknowledges his saws with the technology are at the upper end of the price range, but says the price is nothing compared with the cost and lifelong pain of hand injuries.

I agree 100% with that. It's a business. I wish I invented it. On another forum two members purchased Saw Stops after cutting off fingers. If I had to buy another table saw it would be a Saw Stop. If the cost is more, it can't compare with the extended costs of an injury. The question of how many injuries are the fault of non-equipped saws...I would say little to none. Operators of all ages and experience will continue to stick their fingers into a spinning blade. It's obvious from the statistics that whatever caused those "accidents" some device would have compensated for operator lack of concentration and inattention. Not a bad idea.

This whole controversy about the cost reminds me of the Fram oil filter advertising. It goes on to say something like pay more now, or pay later.

.

The problem I have is that there is no real discussion about the increased operating costs. It always defaults to 'well your hand is very valuable.'

One of my cars doesn't have side-impact airbags, but it doesn't mean I'm inherently more likely to die of blunt head trauma than if I'm in my Acura. It's a bit of a copout response if I'm honest. If you disable the sensor to cut green wood, you have the same likelihood of cutting a body part as on a regular saw.

There is no substitute for good safety practices.

[sparkeyjames]

There's more than one way to skin a ca er stop a saw blade. One guy with a couple of engineers found one way. How much you wanna bet that within a couple of months engineers find another way to do it just as well and freeze Mr. Greed out. Unless everyone is sure his patent is the ONLY way to do it I'd bet against him. Of course this or any device that works will probably drive the saws price up at least 50-100 dollars. But all in all I'd still rather have my fingers attached the way they were when born. Now if they could get something like this for CMS's which I don't doubt take as many fingers as table saws do since more people own them.

Edit: Rather than replace one that's been activated the stupid amateur electricians among us will disable these by the train load. Pages to do so will be all over the internet and people will use sawdust as confetti to cheer it on. Health insurance companies will write riders to exclude people who disable them. More people will be known as 'Lefty'. Great fun will be had by all.

[Cochese]

Anyone have a link to the patent? I'd like to see how it's worded and if it tries to cover all flesh sensing technology.

[herb fellows]

'10 not so bright people a day loose a finger to a table saw'

That isn't fair or accurate. Sure, there are stupid people that do stupid things, but to paint everyone who loses a finger with this brush just isn't right. How would you feel reading that if you had an accident and lost a finger?

'In a country with many many millions of people 10 a day of anything is nothing.'

Unless you or someone you love happens to be one of the 10.

I know it's easy to get riled up about this stuff, but let's think about the people who are actually in this situation.

[sparkeyjames]

Anyone have a link to the patent? I'd like to see how it's worded and if it tries to cover all flesh sensing technology.

It's not flesh sensing it's more in the line of a pico-micro voltage sensor device that detects a rise in blade conductivity that when activated drives a soft metal crush block into the blade and instantly lowers the blade below the table top. So there are two devices at work. The sensor crush block device and the sensor blade lowering device. These more or less have to function at the same time and within a microsecond or less of the blade conductivity rise.

[cabinetman]

The problem I have is that there is no real discussion about the increased operating costs. It always defaults to 'well your hand is very valuable.'

What increased costs are you referring to? The cost of the SS over a competitor, or the cost of surgery due to an "accident". My hand is valuable.

One of my cars doesn't have side-impact airbags, but it doesn't mean I'm inherently more likely to die of blunt head trauma than if I'm in my Acura. It's a bit of a copout response if I'm honest. If you disable the sensor to cut green wood, you have the same likelihood of cutting a body part as on a regular saw.

There is no substitute for good safety practices.

I don't think it's a copout at all. Facts have it that in a crash, you would be better protected with the extra airbags. What's the cost of that. Well it's figured in the cost of the car, and they are there JUST IN CASE OF A CRASH. We also have auto insurance which is JUST IN CASE OF AN ACCIDENT.

.

[Cochese]

What increased costs are you referring to? The cost of the SS over a competitor, or the cost of surgery due to an "accident". My hand is valuable.



I don't think it's a copout at all. Facts have it that in a crash, you would be better protected with the extra airbags. What's the cost of that. Well it's figured in the cost of the car, and they are there JUST IN CASE OF A CRASH. We also have auto insurance which is JUST IN CASE OF AN ACCIDENT.

.

You're avoiding the discussion by referring to a what-if scenario. I'm referring to new brakes and new blades when the device triggers. That has to be incorporated into the discussion.

The other technology eliminates those added costs, so let's drop the appendages excuse.

[Cochese]

It's not flesh sensing it's more in the line of a pico-micro voltage sensor device that detects a rise in blade conductivity that when activated drives a soft metal crush block into the blade and instantly lowers the blade below the table top. So there are two devices at work. The sensor crush block device and the sensor blade lowering device. These more or less have to function at the same time and within a microsecond or less of the blade conductivity rise.

My understanding is that both saws sense contact and activate their safety devices by closing a circuit. I was wondering if there was language specific to that.

[BobSch]

Look at it this way. As soon as new saws have to have SS the value of used used saws will go up for those of us who don't want the government playing babysitter just because somebody screams "Oh, the humanity!"

/rant off

[Cochese]

My concern would be such saws would not be able to be sold at all. With the competing technology, that isn't a concern because it can be used on any saw in any cutting situation.