Carving chisels...

[woodturner]

At least from using these tools a skill level can be achieved and decisions can be made to choose other tools.
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I would also recommend buying a carving glove
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The carvings below were done in just plain clear 1x12 pine.

It probably depends on the individual. A person who gets frustrated more easily may get discouraged by a simpler, lower quality set. A person who is a bit more persistent might work through the frustration and keep at it long enough to determine if they are really interested in continuing to carve.

I'm not a fan of the carving gloves, because I think they are dangerous. People think they can't cut themself if they are wearing a glove, but I've seen too many people cut through the gloves. The gloves are not "cut proof", but rather "slice resistant". A sharp knife point or chisel will readily penetrate the gloves. The gloves do reasonably well at stopping slicing knife cuts, though.

I prefer to teach my students "safe carving". For example, NEVER cut in a direction where your flesh could be in the way of the sharp edge. Make sure your tools are sharp - dull tools require more force to use, making them more likely to slip and to do more damage if they do. Make controlled, two-handed cuts rather than whittling type cuts. If you can't figure out how to hold it safely by hand, use a clamp or vise. Etc.

I have mixed feelings about pine as a carving wood. I have similar reservations about basswood. Both woods are soft and easy to carve, but also don't take and hold detail well. As a result, fine details are hard to carve and maintain, which can be frustrating.

[phrog]

C'man, that's some nice carving - I'm impressed. I especailly liked the way you worked the wood grain into the overall image. And to think you did this with inexpensive tools. A friend of mine won several international wood carving competitions by using his pocket knife. I guess the eye, the hand, and the heart have more to do with it than the tools. Nice job.
Richard

[cabinetman]

It would be interesting to see some of your work. You sound so knowledgeable.

I'm not a fan of the carving gloves, because I think they are dangerous. People think they can't cut themself if they are wearing a glove, but I've seen too many people cut through the gloves. The gloves are not "cut proof", but rather "slice resistant". A sharp knife point or chisel will readily penetrate the gloves. The gloves do reasonably well at stopping slicing knife cuts, though.

Well, I disagree with your take. Maybe the gloves you are familiar with are inferior. I can't cut through my glove. Any protection is better than none. I don't feel encumbered by a glove. It might be a good idea for a beginner until some skill is developed.

I have mixed feelings about pine as a carving wood. I have similar reservations about basswood. Both woods are soft and easy to carve, but also don't take and hold detail well. As a result, fine details are hard to carve and maintain, which can be frustrating.

I disagree again. With sharp tools and being careful, Pine, Basswood, and Balsa carve well. I'm no expert, but my details seem to hold and maintain well.
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[woodturner]

I can't cut through my glove.

One possibly is that that the tools are not sharp enough to cut through the glove. Another possibility is the type of cut - the gloves do reasonably well at resisting "cutting", but they do not resist "stabbing" very well.

The gloves are typically kevlar or a similar material, and thus have similar limitations as kevlar vests. Kevlar vests do pretty well at stopping relatively low velocity projectiles, but don't stop higher energy projectiles. The limitation is the amount of force the glove or vest can resist. A stabbing cut, such as that caused by a knife slip or chisel, concentrates the energy in a smaller area and often penetrates a glove.

You might want to try an experiment on your glove. We tried this at the local club with about 12 different brands of gloves using very sharp tools. We tried the following "cuts":
1. A slicing cut like a normal carving cut.
2. A slicing cut with more force, like what might be experienced if the knife slipped.
3. A knife stab - put the glove on a piece of wood, grab the knife in your hand, an jam it down into the glove.
4. Slicing cut with a small V gouge
5. Stab cut with a small V gouge
6. Slicing cut with a small V gouge
7. Stab cut with a small V gouge

Most of the gloves could be cut but not penetrated for 1 and 2. For the rest, all of the gloves were penetrated to some degree.

If you do try this, it would be interesting to know the brand of glove and the results.

[cabinetman]

One possibly is that that the tools are not sharp enough to cut through the glove. Another possibility is the type of cut - the gloves do reasonably well at resisting "cutting", but they do not resist "stabbing" very well.

I must say my tools are definitely sharp enough. Maybe my glove is just that good. You have provided some very interesting input to this thread. Actually, I'm more interested in seeing your work than discussing glove cutting.
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[woodturner]

Actually, I'm more interested in seeing your work than discussing glove cutting.
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Not sure how well this will come through in reduced resolution photographs, but we will give it a try.

If we look carefully at the claw and wing of the eagle carving posted earlier in this thread, we see some "softness" or "crumbling" of the edges and some "fuzziness" in the background. Look closely where the top edge of the leg meets the background, for example. Ideally this should be a sharp, distinct line, typically made with a V tool to slightly undercut it and provide a bit of a shadow line. In this photo, though, we see that the line is more rounded and "fuzzy". The lower resolution of the photograph causes some fuzzing of the image as well, but the edges of the leg and the bottom tips of the feathers show that carving does not have a sharp line, even beyond the fuzzing introduced by the photography.

I've taken the liberty of reposting a portion of the picture below. I assume the original image is higher resolution, so a thumbnail cropped from the original image would show this detail better.
[Edit: photo removed by request of the publisher]

This is the evidence that the tools were not sharp enough to cut cleanly, which is also why they are not cutting your glove. Sharpness is a personal preference, and there is nothing wrong with using tools that are not as sharp as they can be, if that is one's preference. The consequence, though is less distinct edges and a less clean cut with may require more cleanup or even sanding.

In contrast, the carving below was made with very, very sharp tools. Notice how the edges are "crisp" and sharp, with no sign of fuzziness. Note the V-grooves are sharp and well defined, with a good clear shadow line. Those are the usual signs of sharp tools. As noted, though, sharp tools like this will cut through any kevlar glove, so one needs to be very careful. As an aside, if one really feels they need a glove, a chain mail glove will resist cuts since it is metal. A tool small enough to fit within the gaps in the links will still penetrate, however.



Here is a link to chain mail gloves for reference
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001643.php

[phrog]

Nice carving Woodturner. Is that an original design? Very nice. One thing I think that most everyone on this site will agree on: both you and Cab'man are very talented. Wish I were so talented as you guys. As for the chain mail glove vs Kevlar glove, whew, that's a lot of money for either. I wonder if thick harness leather wouldn't work as well (although limiting movement). I hope we're not about to go into chastity belts next on this thread. :-)
Richard

[woodturner]

Is that an original design?
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As for the chain mail glove vs Kevlar glove, whew, that's a lot of money for either. I wonder if thick harness leather wouldn't work as well (although limiting movement).

No, it is not an original design. That piece is a reproduction, so the carving models the carving on the original piece.

Cost is the real downside to the chain mail gloves. The proponents of chain mail gloves argue the cost is still less than a single doctor visit for stitches. However, a small V tool or gouge will still fit through the links, so one can still seriously injure oneself.

The kevlar gloves are less expensive, but still don't resist stab cuts well.

My greatest concern with the gloves - either type - is that some people, particularly beginners, get a false sense of security when wearing a glove. They think they can't cut themselves and sometimes try cuts that are unsafe, which sometimes result in serious injury. One student in particular comes to mind who managed to put a V tool through the glove and his hand, nearly all the way through the middle of his hand. It took a couple of months for that stab wound to heal.

I just prefer to keep the blood inside rather than outside ;-) In my experience, that is best accomplished through safe technique rather than aids such as gloves.

[phi1l]

Here is a link to chain mail gloves for reference
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001643.php

First of all, let me say that I fully agree with woodturner's philosophy regarding protective gloves. It is my observation that anytime people are given protection, it only encourages higher levels reckless and dangerous behavior.

That being said, it looks to me like they saw the wood carvers coming. Fisherman's fillet gloves cost a lot less:

Here is a link to fillet gloves for reference:

http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001643.php

http://www.hexarmor.com/products/hig...ure-dexterity/

Also, I ran across this site on industrial cut resistance standards that may be of interest:

http://www.ien.com/article/do-you-speak/2688

[cabinetman]

No, it is not an original design. That piece is a reproduction, so the carving models the carving on the original piece.

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Since the original isn't shown for a comparison, and since you didn't say you carved this piece I will say that the finished work reflects the flair of the artist. In the carving you presented, making comments on the tooling or what I think it is supposed to look like is ludicrous. It's a common technique to have machine cut patterns on furniture, and whether the original was hand done or machine cut is questionable. By that alone to say that a reproduction you presented as yours reflected an exact copy of the original is indeterminable.

Comparing the details of a carving and making the assumption that it appears that tools were not sharp doesn't reflect on a craftsman that should know what it takes to carve those finite details. Creating the details in the eagles legs, claws and feathers show that the tools used for the size in question appears to be a matter of opinion as to whether the cuts appear to be a subject of less than sharp tools. I believe that the artistic flair of the artist reflects on what the look will be and how it's created.

You raised a point about sharpness, and that peaks my interest in the difference you described. So, I give you the right to copy my eagle (since you are into reproductions), and post the carving when you get it done, so I can see the difference. I'm always up for learning. That sounds fair to me.
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[cabinetman]

My greatest concern with the gloves - either type - is that some people, particularly beginners, get a false sense of security when wearing a glove. They think they can't cut themselves and sometimes try cuts that are unsafe, which sometimes result in serious injury.

In my experience, that is best accomplished through safe technique rather than aids such as gloves.

This type of advice troubles me. We participate in a craft that can be very dangerous by virtue of the tools we use. Suggesting to avoid safety devices intended to protect us because it may give a feeling of over confidence, or which may inhibit our senses IMO, is just bad advice.

If that theory makes any sense at all, we should not use the blade guard on our table saws, remove any riving knives if we have them, not use push sticks or feather boards, not wear safety glasses or hearing protection, dust masks or respirators.

I appreciate and thank you for your extensive dissertations (whether true or not) in an attempt to express your opinion, as that is what forums are all about.

BTW, I'm looking forward to your posting pictures of your copy of my eagle, as the comparisons will be a good source of discussion.
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[woodturner]

since you didn't say you carved this piece

Well, I wasn't going to "go there", but since you insinuated I committed plagiarism, I will note that the photos you posted bear an uncanny resemblence to photos published in "Chip Chats", the magazine for the National Woodcarvers Association (NWCA). Are the photos you posted your own work?

It's a common technique to have machine cut patterns on furniture, and whether the original was hand done or machine cut is questionable.

I assumed everyone would recognize the source of the original, given that it is on prominent display in a major museum. In any event, neither the original or the reproduction are machine cut. It's apparent from the detail photo that the carving was not machine-cut, since it's not possible to achieve that level of detail and definition with a machine.

Comparing the details of a carving and making the assumption that it appears that tools were not sharp doesn't reflect on a craftsman that should know what it takes to carve those finite details.

It's clear from the photo of the carving that the tools were not sharp enough to cleanly cut the end grain. Most people who have tried that type of carving would be likely be drawn to that - it's a common trouble areas for carvers. It takes a fair amount of work and practice to learn to overcome those problems - sharp tools are not enough.

As I said, sharpness of tools is a very personal and subjective topic. I often sell my work, so I suppose I would have to categorize myself as a "pro". As such, I need to produce excellent work in a reasonable period of time or my work will not sell. I can't spend twelve weeks working on a piece and charge $50K for that piece if the work is not flawless. For me, very sharp tools assist me in this goal and eliminate the need for sanding, which saves me time.

A person doing woodworking for fun and recreation such as yourself doesn't need to be constrained by the same time issues. If you are comfortable with the sharpness of your tools and the quality of your work, isn't that all that matters? If you are happy, it should not matter that others produce differing work.

I give you the right to copy my eagle

I don't copy other's designs, except when reproducing classical furniture. I worked through the carving issues mentioned some time ago, so it doesn't seem worthwhile for me to carve such a piece.

You might wish to consider trying carving such as I posted, though. You can find drawings for this type of work in many magazines or books, or I would be happy to recommend a book. The Frank Gottshall books generally have pretty good detail drawings.

I think if you were to try a more detailed relief-style carving, you could really improve your carving skills. I certainly learned a lot from my first furniture carving. Though it was many years ago, I still remember those lessons.

Another great source of information is the Chris Pye newsletter. If you go to his website:
http://www.chrispye-woodcarving.com/
you can sign up for his email newsletter which is a great source of information and instruction. BTW, he has an eagle carving on the home page that shows what is possible with sharp tools and experience.

I'm not interested in pointless arguing or debating. I'm happy to share information and help others, but arguing just annoys everyone.

[woodturner]

This type of advice troubles me.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I still feel that a "safety device" that creates a false sense of security is more dangerous than training that avoids the issue. With carving, the training IS the "safety device".

An analogy: A handgun has a safety to prevent accidental firing. Yet in firearms training, they always teach that you NEVER point a gun at a body part or person you do not intend to harm. They teach to always act as if the gun is loaded and safety is off.

Carving is similar, in a way. No glove or other crutch will protect one from unsafe practices, just as the anti-kickback pawls on a table saw cannot always protect one from an unsafe cut. Safety devices are aids and assistants, and do not obviate the need for safe practice and knowledge on the part of the craftsperson.

[woodturner]

That being said, it looks to me like they saw the wood carvers coming.

It seems that is often the case - obtain a product, add a zero to the price, and call it a "special" woodworker's tool ;-)

Thanks for posting the links. Hadn't thought about looking into OSHA standards or other objective test standards for cut resistance. The spec you linked clearly defines the amount of force required to penetrate a glove at a specified level. That information should allow most people to find a glove that will resist their typical cuts.

I was not familiar with the fillet gloves you linked. I'll have to check those out - they seem to be much more cut resistant than the gloves sold for woodcarving, and the standards allow the cut resistance to be quantified.

[cabinetman]

Well, I wasn't going to "go there", but since you insinuated I committed plagiarism, I will note that the photos you posted bear an uncanny resemblence to photos published in "Chip Chats", the magazine for the National Woodcarvers Association (NWCA). Are the photos you posted your own work?

You still haven't stated you did that carving. An uncanny resemblance? An expert such as you should know by looking at the comparison. Go ahead and post those pictures, that will surely tell won't it?

I assumed everyone would recognize the source of the original, given that it is on prominent display in a major museum. In any event, neither the original or the reproduction are machine cut. It's apparent from the detail photo that the carving was not machine-cut, since it's not possible to achieve that level of detail and definition with a machine.

No, you got me there. I didn't just recognize the carving. I must be slipping. But, it may surprise you to know that 'machine cut' and computer generated carvings can do finite details. To say "it's not possible" means you probably aren't too familiar with those processes.

As I said, sharpness of tools is a very personal and subjective topic. I often sell my work, so I suppose I would have to categorize myself as a "pro". As such, I need to produce excellent work in a reasonable period of time or my work will not sell. I can't spend twelve weeks working on a piece and charge $50K for that piece if the work is not flawless. For me, very sharp tools assist me in this goal and eliminate the need for sanding, which saves me time.

Wow..now to find out that we actually have a "Pro carver" on this forum is certainly a stroke of luck. I would have found that out if your profile had been filled out. You know, I had an inkling that you were a "Pro" from the way you talked. Since this is a woodworking forum I'm surprised that you didn't fill out a profile and list "pro wood carver". You should accommodate our forum with posting pictures that were done with "correctly sharpened tools" and the skill level of a "Pro".

A person doing woodworking for fun and recreation such as yourself doesn't need to be constrained by the same time issues. If you are comfortable with the sharpness of your tools and the quality of your work, isn't that all that matters? If you are happy, it should not matter that others produce differing work.

You sound a bit confused. I do woodworking as a profession. That means it's what I do to earn a living. Time restraints and quality are an issue. My clients are very pleased with my work. I may include carving chair backs, focal points, aprons or frieze panels...all original.

I don't copy other's designs, except when reproducing classical furniture. I worked through the carving issues mentioned some time ago, so it doesn't seem worthwhile for me to carve such a piece.

Consider your reproducing my eagle as a carving lesson for the members here. Actually I'd like to see the difference. That would be a very interesting thread.

You might wish to consider trying carving such as I posted, though. You can find drawings for this type of work in many magazines or books, or I would be happy to recommend a book.

Thanks for the offer. I've done drawer fronts and don't find much of a challenge doing reproductions. I draw my own patterns.

I think if you were to try a more detailed relief-style carving, you could really improve your carving skills. I certainly learned a lot from my first furniture carving. Though it was many years ago, I still remember those lessons.

You might be right about that. I have always thought I could do better. But I'm pretty satisfied with the details I get. I am somewhat limited now with the dexterity of my hands and fingers after all the years of woodworking. Maybe if I had taken your expert advice in technique my hands would be in better shape.

I'm not interested in pointless arguing or debating. I'm happy to share information and help others, but arguing just annoys everyone.

We all appreciate your expert advice. It's a pleasure to have a real "pro" to offer intelligent information. I'm sorry if you consider this arguing.
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