biscuit joiner vs. biscut slot cutting router bit

[courtney]

Hi all,

What are the advantages of using a real biscuit joiner over one of the router bit setups on a router table? I'm thinking about the following kit:

http://www.infinitytools.com/products.asp?dept=1097

The router bit kit is a good bit cheaper than a good biscuit joiner. The only disadvantage to the router bit I see is having to maneuver the material to join onto the router table. I have never used either technique, though. Are there any major issues either way?

Thanks,
Courtney

[LarryG]

Disclaimer: I use my routers a lot, but have never cut biscuit slots with them. For that, I use my P-C 557.

Time and ease of use are going to be the two biggest differences, with the advantage for both going to the plate joiner. Manuevering the workpiece across the router table could certainly become an issue with large pieces, but time and convenience are going to be the biggies.

With a router you're going to have to change bits, set up the fence, and then possibly make some adjustments to the bit height, the fence position, or both after making a trial cut. With a plate joiner you will usually just pick up the tool and cut the slots. I say "usually" because you may need to dial in the size of biscuit you're using (five seconds), and/or adjust the fence to position the cutter in the vertical direction (another five seconds). But very often these settings are already where you want them, from the last time you used the tool.

Still, a plate joiner is an expensive tool that does only one little job and nothing else. It does that job exceptionally well, but that's all it can do. On a per-cut basis, a plate joiner may well be the most expensive tool in the shop since it runs for only a matter of seconds each time it cuts a slot. If you have a lot of slots to cut, though, you can't touch 'em for speed and ease of use.

Note that a similar situation will exist for the router approach. You will spend a fair amount of time setting up the table to cut the slots and then zip-zot-zap, you're done.

So this one is a tough call. The fifty bucks the bit costs would make a fair down payment on a good plate joiner (and there's no use getting one unless you get a GOOD one). But if you won't be cutting a lot of slots the hassle of having to set up the router table may not be that big a deal. FWIW I don't cut all that many slots, but when I do need to do so, I'm glad I have my 557.

[Tundra_Man]

If you want to do any biscuit slots into a beveled miter (i.e. skirt molding) you'd have to build quite the jig to get the router setup to work.

Most biscuit joiners also have dust collection, which is a big plus as they spew sawdust everywhere.

In addition to the 3 standard biscuit sizes, some biscuit joiners also allow the cutting of the two "mini" sizes.

Biscuit joiners are easier to align with your reference lines. They have a mark perpendicular to the center of the cutter that you can use to line up the tool, then plunge the slot at that point. With the router bit you're eyeballing it. Usually not a big deal unless you're cutting a biscuit into a piece that's only a hair wider than the biscuit slot itself (i.e. frame miters).

I picked up my Freud for about $100. Granted the router bit set would be half this amount, so you have to decide if it's worth the extra $50 for the added convenience and features.

[LarryG]

quote:Originally posted by Tundra_Man

Most biscuit joiners also have dust collection, which is a big plus as they spew sawdust everywhere.

HA! In the interests of full disclosure, fair play, etc., I must herewith note that the dust collection bag on my P-C 557 is about as useful as a dog turd. Cut three slots and it backs up so badly that the dust and shavings spews back out around the blade. Lately I've taken to leaving the bag off and letting the debris shoot out onto the floor, and I've noticed that Nahm does the same thing.

But anyway, in the event Courtney is favoring the router solution, let's save him some money:

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product...rings_id=10329

At $31 this Rockler slot cutter set is almost 40% cheaper than the one he found; it's apparently available only with a 1/4" shank but for a cut as small as a biscuit slot, IMO a 1/4" shank is not a liability.

[Tundra_Man]

quote:Originally posted by LarryG

quote:Originally posted by Tundra_Man

Most biscuit joiners also have dust collection, which is a big plus as they spew sawdust everywhere.

HA! In the interests of full disclosure, fair play, etc., I must herewith note that the dust collection bag on my P-C 557 is about as useful as a dog turd. Cut three slots and it backs up so badly that the dust and shavings spews back out around the blade. Lately I've taken to leaving the bag off and letting the debris shoot out onto the floor, and I've noticed that Nahm does the same thing.

Sorry, I should have clarified. Most biscuit joiners also have the ability to hook up dust collection. Mine came with a useless bag as well, but if I hook my Shop-Vac up to the port it is very clean.

[Tool Fool]

Hi Courtney - I cut biscuit slots with both and prefer the dedicate biscuit machine. The router bit is cheaper, and it's fairly easy to use when mounted, but you've got to put the bit in and out of the router which can be a pain if you're trying to use the router for other things. The biscuit cutter is easier and a more versatile, can do angles more easily, and can cut a slot in the middle of a shelf for a vertical panel divider....something the router cutter cannot do. It's also easier to use different size biscuits with the
biscuit cutter.

[KomaToast]

Look at the diameter of the router blade compared to the biscuit joiner blade.
The biscuit joiner blade is much larger in diameter and cuts a biscuit slot that matches the curve of the biscuit.
The router blade cuts a smaller diameter slot that doesn't fit the biscuit the same so a longer slot has to be cut.
The end result is a slot with a flat bottom with a tighter radius on the ends which would make it difficult to get centered properly.
All biscuits have the same radius, the difference in size is the overlap of the radii.

I've tried the slot cutter blade in the router table before and it works well for cutting slots but the biscuit joiner works best for cutting biscuit slots.

A stop block has to be used to keep the wood in place when cutting the biscuit slots.
That becomes difficult when cutting several slots in a long piece.
Whitout a stop block the wood can be sent into orbit if the slot cutting blade grabs it.

Keith

[LarryG]

quote:Originally posted by Tundra_Man

Sorry, I should have clarified. Most biscuit joiners also have the ability to hook up dust collection. Mine came with a useless bag as well, but if I hook my Shop-Vac up to the port it is very clean.

Yeah, I need to try that. That's what I do with my ROS, since the vac hose is a perfect fit, but I don't have the right kind of adapter to connect it to the plate joiner.

[courtney]

I hadn't thought about the shape of the slot. Aren't biscuit jointer blades about 4" diameter? It seems like the routed slot would have a different enough shape to make alignment difficult, negating one of the big benefits of using biscuits. It sounds like the general concensus is that the router bit would work, but you sacrifice much of the convenience of using biscuits in the first place. Thanks everyone for the input.

Courtney

[Tom Miller]

Here's another recent thread, mostly concerning edge jointing:

http://www.bt3central.com/forum/topi...hTerms=biscuit

(I had good things to say about the table-mounted router with biscuit slot cutter for lining up boards for edge jointing.)

Regards,
Tom

[wassaw998]

If you are set on Infinity, how about Infinity item # 23-532B (Slot Cutter, 5/32" - slot for biscuits ... $ 19.90) ? That is a single bit set up to cut 1/2", which I think matches a #20 biscuit). For $20 bucks, seems like it would be worth a shot, that is what I am gona try. Or, like Lary found, the full kit from Rockler. I'm sort of lost on the real advantage of the kit here, unless using different sized biscuits is imp to you. (Then why not just use the fence on the router table to control depth !).

Or,...under bargains, there is a thread on the PC 557 ,you can get that for $144 now from amazon with rebates. [8D]

[mehranh]

I really tried to be the "devil's advocate" but I can't. I bought my Dewalt biscuit joiner as a "luxury" item, intended to be used only seldom. But, I have been using in every imaginable project. The ease of use...it priceless. I've never done a biscuit slot with a router...but I wouldn't even entertain the idea.
As regards to dust collection: try doing biscuit slots in cedar! talking about clogged! I just wear a dust mask

[jstevens]

Coupla comments from a guy who uses a router instead of a biscuit joiner...so far. In order to be clear in my description of what surface of a board I’m referring to, imagine a piece of oak that’s 5/4” by 8” by 24”. The “end” is the side that measures 5/4” by 8”. The “edge” is the side that measures 5/4” by 24”. The “face” is the side that measures 8” by 24”.

1. I use splines and floating tenon joints instead of biscuits because I've heard people complain that the biscuits "telegraph" through to the surface. If that's not really a problem, I'd probably go for a biscuit joiner in a heartbeat because of the time saved in setting up the “cuts,” making the “cuts” and making the jigs (more on the jigs below).

2. I don’t use a slot-cutting bit. I use a 1/4” straight solid carbide spiral upcut bit for edges, end grain AND faces of boards (see #4 below). Biscuits are 4mm (5/32”) thick, so if you want to use biscuits, get a 5/32” or 4mm straight bit and an appropriate jig or horizontal router table to work on ends or edges. The spiral upcut bit makes a crisp, clean mortise or groove every time.

3. Dust collection is probably a draw, assuming you can hook up your router or your biscuit joiner to a DC. (I have a router that connects to my shop vac, and it gets almost 100% of the dust).

4. You can use a router to cut a biscuit slot on the face of a board. Just get a 4mm or 5/32” straight bit and set up a guide like you would for cutting a dado on the face of a board. The guides I made also work for dados and grooves on the faces of boards, and they should work with any type of router that can use an edge guide--you just attach a block with a groove in it, and the groove rides on a narrow wooden rail set into a groove that runs parallel to the length of the guide. It’s not as complicated as it sounds, and it’s easy to make on the BT3100 if you have a dado set. Sorry, I don’t have a digital camera so I can’t post pics, but they’re modeled after the ones on the Festool web site ( www.festool-usa.com ). They’re made of 1/4” lauan plywood, with a strip of waxed oak or UHMW for the runner, and the underside is thin, non-skid carpet pad (twenty bucks for a 9’x6’ piece at HD) attached with double-sided carpet tape. The pad squishes just a hair, which can make the groove a little less than perpendicular--while that hasn’t been enough to make the results inaccurate, I’m making new ones that will use a harder non-skid material. Cut to lengths that are useful to you. I have three, each a shade longer than 2’ (dados in just about any size of carcase), 4’ (longer dados) and 8’ (for working on panels) respectively. The 4’ one also serves as an auxiliary fence on the BT3100, for when I need an extra-low fence.

5. You can use the same straight bit to cut biscuit slots when joining boards on their ends or edges, but you need a jig, and you either need to eyeball the width of the slot or set up stop blocks on the jig. I've done both, and eyeballing to a pencil mark works fine for me unless I need to get really close to an area that I don't want to cut into. Then the stop blocks come in handy. They get held in place with spring clamps--nothing fancy needed.

6. I've made a couple of the jigs of the type mentioned in #5 above. Although they could be used for simple slots for biscuits, I use them to mortises and grooves. I’ve also made a block that allows me to orient the board so its face is 90 degrees to the face of the jig, with the end grain facing the cutter. This allows me to waste away the wood on the ends to make multiple tenons (for example, if you want to set a fixed shelf in a bookcase). Put a thin piece of scrap behind and in front of the workpiece, and you don’t have to worry about tearout. I haven’t used it to make dovetails yet (for example, for drawers), but it should work just as well for that.

They can mortise or slot a mitered board, but only the type of miter that runs diagonally across the face of the board. If the edge or end is mitered, then the design of the jig gets a lot more complicated, especially if you want it to be infinitely adjustable between 45-90 degrees. I plan to make a jig that will do this, but I haven’t settled on which alternative design I want. Each alternative calls for a lot of accuracy and time, which I’m reluctant to spend until I get a few other projects done.

Although the jigs I have now were not too difficult to make, they cost me more than a biscuit joiner if I value my time at the rate I earn at my job...and I'm not that highly paid. This should definitely be a prime consideration for anyone, unless you prefer to be alone in your shop making jigs instead of spending time in the fresh air and sunshine, or reading a good book, or hanging with your family or friends. Life is finite, and the clock is always running. If you’re still curious about the design of the jigs, read on below.

[jstevens]

Router jigs

One of the jigs is set up to cut into end of a board up to 8" wide, with up to a 45 degree miter running diagonally across the face of the board. The other jig is designed to cut into the edges of boards, either for mortises or spline grooves. It can handle boards up to 4' long and 10” wide without repositioning them. This jig can also handle a board of any width as long as the length is less than 4’, or any length, as long as the width is 10” or less and you can re-position the board to cut along its length in more than one step. It wouldn't be much more trouble to make a jig to handle boards 4' - 8' long without repositioning, but storage would be a problem for me. I find it very quick and easy to reposition the board without affecting the accuracy of the alignment, so I doubt I’ll ever make a jig longer than 4’. If there comes a time when I want to mortise or groove stuff that is more than 4’ long and 10” wide, I’ll make a jig that will allow the router to slide along the workpiece, rather than sliding the workpiece along the jig. I’m planning on redesigning the jig so I can just use a single 4’ long jig to do the tasks of the two jigs I have now.

The jigs are just two planks of MDF (yeah, I hate to work with it) each about 10” wide, joined along their lengths at a 90 degree angle, and reinforced with corner braces. The face of one of the MDF planks has a "guide rail" running parallel to the long edge, set into a dadoed slot to guide the router. Same principle as the dado guides described in #4, above.

The other MDF plank is where the workpiece gets clamped so it is oriented properly in relation to the router bit. For the jig that works on the ends of boards, this plank has a guide strip made of oak--this guide strip is set at the appropriate angle (0 to 45 degrees relative to the router bit) and clamped in place (can be screwed in place for 0 degrees, which sees the great majority of use). This plank also has bolts that hold a clamping mechanism that holds the workpiece in place. For the jig that works on the edges of boards, I use clamps and blocks as needed to hold the workpiece in position

To use the jigs, I set a non-skid pad on top of a B&D Workmate, and put the jig on top. The “hypotenuse” of the cross section rests on the surface of the bench, so the router and the wood are both at a 45 degree angle in relation to the ground. This setup is great for the “end jig,” because you can work with a piece of just about any length. I’ve routed mortises in 6’ long planks--the back edge of the jig sits on the top of the Workmate and the end of the plank rests on the floor. You could make the jig so it can be held in the vise of a regular workbench if you would rather do it that way. The 45 degree orientation is also an advantage for the "edge jig" because once you've got the blocks set up to position the board properly, you can release the clamps and slide the workpiece along the jig to reposition it, and gravity works for you, not against you.