Questions on planes

**jbalders** · 06-17-2007, 08:46 PM

Anna,

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but I'll tell you what I do know. I'm sure the more knowledgeable people out there will assist in correcting me if I don't have something exactly right.

1) I have an Bailey #7 Type 11 (ca. 1910-1918) that my dad picked up at an auction about 25 years ago. It's heavier, but not THAT much heavier than a #5. Once tuned, it sliced through wood quite nicely, not requiring that much strength. I think it's around 22" long, and I think you can pick these up on ebay for around $40-80, depending on condition and maybe cheaper at flea markets. The only gotchas that I'm aware of with these are:

Get something dated before WWII, or maybe slightly earlier. (http://www.tooltrip.com -> Stanley Tools -> Bench and Block Planes -> Stanley Baily Type Study -- this site intentionally disables links into the site, so I've given you the map to get at the data, or http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm). Apparently the quality went downhill after that.
Make sure that the throat isn't cracked (or welded) around the outside edges, and that the plane hasn't been dropped
Make sure it doesn't have too much rust (just surface rust, no pitting), and preferably the black coating (the name escapes me at the moment) on top is more or less intact as it's hard to replicate it
Make sure that the mechanicals all work, and the iron and cap are reasonably free of rust

The rest can be cleaned up fairly easily with a combination of "Rust Free", "Boeshield T-9" and your favorite lapping and sharpening methods. The more valuable it is, the more careful you want to be with the cleaning. You can buy replacement handles from Woodcraft for around $35, I think, if the handles are damaged and you don't want to replace them yourself.

For slightly farther gone planes, someone (Pappy?) had photographed a very detailed rust-removal method using a battery charger -- I've used it and it works VERY well.

Of course, this is if your budget is smaller than your available time -- in the case of a big budget, LN is hard to beat.

(edit) And to actually answer your question, I think a #7 is probably what you're looking for. It's 22" long and should give you the weight vs. accuracy you're looking for.

4) I seem to recall watching an "Ask This Old House" episode where Tommy stated that the block plane was designed so it would fit in a pocket. It's a little less accurate (smaller sole) than a #4 or #5, but given the portability and control imparted by the smaller size, it still has a useful purpose.

5) I picked up the following two books:
The Complete Guide to Sharpening -- Lee
This book seems to contain more information than you would ever care to know about regarding metal, blades and sharpening. Heartily recommended.

The Handplane Book -- Hack
Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I seem to remember someone recommending it. I just don't remember if that someone was reputable or not.

I'm sure others will have plenty of additional information to add.

**kwgeorge** · 06-17-2007, 08:53 PM

Wow, I could spend some serious time answering these questions and giving my opinions on a lot of what you ask but instead I will give you the short version.

1. I got some rough maple boards that are 9 to 10 inch wide, and I want to joint them by hand (I hate my 6" benchtop jointer). There are several long planes ranging from 14" to 30" (?). I'm thinking of getting either 18" or 22" (can't be too heavy or I won't be able to use it). Why would I choose a low-angle plane over another kind? Is there a better plane than Lie-Nielsen that won't cost me much more?

I have a rather small shop but still like my motorized jointer, however with that said I will often run a plane down the edge of a board prior to a glue up to sweeten the edge. Now a lot of hand tool enthusiast would disagree with me but I personally like a number 6 for this task. It is long enough to joint and small enough for the shop.

I'm thinking of getting a #4 or so for cleaning up. I found a bronze plane and an iron plane. The prices aren't too different, so why should I pick one over the other?

You may want to try a number 3 if you have small hands but either way I have both the bronze and the iron and I personally prefer the iron. I can apply some paste wax and go but with the bronze it is a challenge to keep it looking decent. Now I really like to work with highly figured woods so I have found that I really like the Lie-Nielsen 164 low angle smoothing plane for that.

Do I need a block plane? What the h*ll is it for anyway? Can the #4 do what the block plane does?

A block plane is one of those things I can no longer imagine life without. I find myself constantly reaching for one. My favorite is a little apron plane by Lie-Nielsen tagged the number 102. With low angle block planes they are very suited to cutting across endgrain whereas the standard bed angle would catch and tear. I like to use them to flatten inlays, finish mate surfaces, fit drawers and so on.

Which books do you recommend to learn more about planes? I never really paid any attention to the subject before because I was determined to stay away from hand tools (all that sharpening!). But the Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane made me change my mind.

As to looking at buying planes also check out Veritas planes at Lee Valley tools. I have a couple now and find them exceptional. Also you can enter the work of old iron and start hunting old tools and giving them another life. I myself prefer pre WWII models.

As to books there are many but without a doubt you should start with �Planecraft� carried at woodcraft. This book has been republished like 13 times and is still one of the best books on planes you can buy.

Ken

**linear** · 06-17-2007, 09:13 PM

I'm a little bit farther down the slippery slope than you, but not a lot, Anna. So I'll disclaim all my comments with I'm a beginner too.

I think it's actually great that you want to perform a specific job and haven't yet picked out the plane. I sort of went the other direction, and it turned out okay, but you have it in the correct order in my opinion.

I think there's merit in getting one new high-quality plane so you have a standard to which to compare a restored vintage plane. But you'll go broke fast getting lots of the new ones.

For the work you said want to do, the traditional choice would be a #7 jointer. The #4 would have more tendency to follow a curve in the plank. You could use it but you'd need to be aware of the high spots and use a lot of care in planing.

Other posters here have mentioned Veritas planes as an alternative to Lie-Nielsen that's more cost-effective and equally well-made if not superior.

I own a Lie-Nielsen #60-1/2 low angle block plane. It's optimal for cutting end grain and highly figured boards, sort of the other end of the spectrum from what you want.

I have a vintage #4 and #5 Stanley that I just got a week ago. They are both fairly versatile--the #5 is a good compromise between jointer and smoother and it's said it can do a "middling" job of either. Both of those together set me back about half of a Veritas #4. They both needed work to be usable.

An observation: the type of plane as well as how you set it up are both important in how well-suited it will be for the work. So you can set up that #5 for taking thin shavings like a smoother, or for taking a deeper shaving like a jointer might. But the best result will come from the right plane correctly set up for the work at hand.

I've gotten almost every book available from my library at this point, here's mini-reviews of the big ones:

The Handplane Book, Garret Hack
Chapters 3-5 are good reference/intro material on setting up a plane and using it effectively. 6-11 present planes by type of work. This is worth a read, but chapter 3-5 are the good parts.

The Complete Guide to Sharpening, Leonard Lee
Chapters 1-5 are essential to understanding what sharp is about. Chapter 7 deals with the specifics of sharpening plane irons. Get this from your library, read it and return it.

Fine Woodworking on Planes and Chisels
I get grouchy about the magazine-article-compendium books, but this one actually helped me quite a bit. Each article deals with a slightly different topic, and taken as a group it's a pretty good introduction to planes and won't take long to absorb. It's the best single "how to use a plane" resource I've found so far. (there's lots online about resoring them)

Web sites I've found mostly by combing through here:
http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingp...g/fettling.htm (seems to be gone now

)
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html
http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/sta...ing/index.html

My recent post on tuning up my #5 might interest you.

I fully anticipate your speedy transition to the workbench topic. Once I got to where my panes did what I want I immediately started envisioning a "real" workbench to use them with.

**Anna** · 06-17-2007, 10:12 PM

Jeff, Ken and Rob, thanks for the tips!

One reason I'm leaning towards Lie-Nielsens is the fact that they're good out of the box and I don't have to sharpen them or anything (I'm still scared of sharpening). A friend is offering me a Stanley #4 (I think) from 1909 or something, so I'll pick that one up next week.

I'm now looking at this Veritas plane for jointing. I can probably afford two Lie-Nielsen planes, but would be really happy for cheaper versions that are at least just as good. I tried looking at eBay, but most of those planes look pretty bad. The good ones are up in the couple-hundred-bucks-plus level, at which point I might as well buy something brand new. I'll keep looking, though.

Hubby is insisting I should just use the power planer and belt sander for this. I've already tried those when building my workbench and I know I didn't like the results.

I'm getting at least a jointing plane and a block plane, that part at least I've decided on (since I'm getting the #4 pretty cheaply from my friend). Thanks again for the pointers. I'll do some more research on this.

**LinuxRandal** · 06-17-2007, 10:35 PM

I am NOT a plane expert, BY ANY MEAN's.

But I wanted to point out a couple things
1. The Low angle planes (as stated above, just making sure you don't miss it), are better at figured wood's (curly grain and such).
2. While the Bailey's are the "standard" (decent) planes, the Defiant's (and several others) are the low end, and the Stanley Bedrocks, are the HIGH end Stanley's (and what the Lie Nielson's are based off of).

You have several good book references, and within the last couple of months, (I think Popular Woodworking), had an article on hand plane tune up and usage. I would also check YOUR LIBRARY. I found several of the books there, which leads me to
If you hate sharpening, you might not like using them on a regular basis. Because your gonna need to learn and do it, or be unhappy with your results form a dull plane.
If your uncomfortable doing that, consider this:

Look at how much your going to spend on your series of planes, books, sharpening, verses how much you will save on a gym membership (and getting tighter arms then your husband), and compare it, to a NON benchtop jointer (what I think you said you have).

You might be happier with that for now.

Just some options.
Enjoy what you do decide!

**gwyneth** · 06-17-2007, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Anna

One reason I'm leaning towards Lie-Nielsens is the fact that they're good out of the box and I don't have to sharpen them or anything (I'm still scared of sharpening).

Since you probably know you're going to need to sharpen the one you have at some point (possibly already, if you've used it a lot) it might be a good idea to choose a sharpening method and aquire its stuff.

**jbalders** · 06-17-2007, 10:45 PM

I like that Vertias plane you linked to.

Oh to be DINKs again. No kids.. Two incomes. Just imagine the tools!

Only 16 years, 361 days, 16 hours, 16 minutes and 18 seconds until the youngest graduates high school. And yes, I realize it won't completely end there.

**Anna** · 06-17-2007, 11:00 PM

Linux, I didn't know that about the Bedrocks vs the Baileys, and I've never even heard of the Defiants before. Good to know. Most of the planes I've been seeing on eBay are Bailey types. There are a couple of Sargents I'm eyeing now. From what I've read so far, some of the old Sargents, Miller Falls and Fultons were as good as or better than the equivalent Stanleys.

Re sharpening:

I know I have to learn to do this at some point and have started collecting articles (although I haven't read any of them thoroughly). I already have the MK II and several stones, plus a benchtop grinder with all the Wolverine jigs for sharpening the turning tools. I prefer sharpening with the stones and MK II rather than the grinder, but it's been taking me a LONG time. I still have to finish sharpening all my chisels (I have 10) plus I promised hubby I'll sharpen his chisels, too.

I know I should learn how to do this properly, and I will eventually. A friend just pointed out something about honing and deburring and a bunch of other things that make my head ache. I'll probably end up taking classes at Woodcraft on sharpening.

When I mentioned being scared of sharpening, I really meant the grinder. It's loud and noisy, and all those sparks kinda turn me off. I had a similar problem when I first started using the table saw. I'd almost hyperventilate before turning it on. Now, of course, it's considered as just another tool. I think I just have to spend more time with my sharpening stuff to familiarize myself with them.

My shoulder plane is still brand new, and I've only used it to clean up all the tenons for my first table (mahogany). It's still pretty sharp the last time I tried to use it to get my plywood cabinet pieces to fit properly, though (I know, it's not what it's made for, but it's my only plane; also another reason I'm getting gung-ho about getting more planes).

Will be stopping at Woodcraft tomorrow to look at the planes again. Hubby is with me, though, so I don't know if I'll be able to sneak a purchase.

**Anna** · 06-17-2007, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by LinuxRandal

Look at how much your going to spend on your series of planes, books, sharpening, verses how much you will save on a gym membership (and getting tighter arms then your husband), and compare it, to a NON benchtop jointer (what I think you said you have).

You might be happier with that for now.

By the way, thanks for that perspective. Didn't even occur to me that with the money I'm looking at spending on the planes, I can get a pretty decent full-sized jointer.

There's something almost Zen-like with using a plane, though, as opposed to the power and bluster that goes with the power tools. I mean, I still love my power tools, and at one point or another I've looked appreciatively at most of them (not that *#$^ jointer).

But I'm also beginning to appreciate the gentler aspects of hand tools. I even almost used my hand saw to cut a slot behind the cabinet for the electricals, until common sense took over and I got my jigsaw instead.

**Pappy** · 06-18-2007, 04:45 AM

Anna, I will agree with Ken on the value of the #6 plane for jointing. It is 18" long vs. 22" for the #7. Both do an excellent job jointing a board, especially with a #386 fence attached.

For smoothing, either a #3 or #4 are good. Just depends on how each feels in your hands.

I keep both standard and low angle block planes in the shop. On figure or end grain, it's the low angle. For edge work and adding a chamfer the low angle can get under the grain and lift/tear rather than cut.

**linear** · 06-18-2007, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by gwyneth

Since you probably know you're going to need to sharpen the one you have at some point (possibly already, if you've used it a lot) it might be a good idea to choose a sharpening method and aquire its stuff.

I'll underscore this. I have a Lie-Nielsen and thought just like you about it being ready for use. But once I had really sharpened up the blade on my #5 I realized what sharp meant, and realized the Lie-Nielsen iron came "flat, but not sharp enough."

Since you already have the Mk. II honing jig, I'll recommend you use that since it makes the process pretty foolproof. You won't do anything to the iron that you can't easily undo. You can use lower grit if it's too slow at putting the right bevel on your iron. I used a sheet of 120 sandpaper after spending a long time making very little progress, and reached the bevel angle I wanted within a few minutes. Then it takes just a minute or two at each grit to remove scratches left by the previous one.

**gwyneth** · 06-18-2007, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by linear

Since you already have the Mk. II honing jig, I'll recommend you use that since it makes the process pretty foolproof. You won't do anything to the iron that you can't easily undo. You can use lower grit if it's too slow at putting the right bevel on your iron. I used a sheet of 120 sandpaper after spending a long time making very little progress, and reached the bevel angle I wanted within a few minutes. Then it takes just a minute or two at each grit to remove scratches left by the previous one.

You might also consider getting a set of diamond "hones" (they're not really stones, are they? But that isn't quite the right term, either). With the jig they will reduce the time most sharpening takes to such an extent that some people have trouble adjusting...maybe four or five swipes on each of three grit levels.

**Tom Miller** · 06-18-2007, 01:46 PM

I really like the bevel up planes like that jointer you're looking at. I have their Low Angle Jack, and couldn't be happier with it. The learning curve is much easier compared to bevel down, which gets you to better results faster.

You might even consider the LA Jack as a first plane, since you can get decent results with it for jointing, as well as smoothing. And it really shines when you need to cut endgrain to square up your stock with a shooting board. You can get several blades with different bevel angles, which allow you to do a good job on anything from endgrain (low bevel angle), to highly figured wood (high bevel angle).

Also, I highly recommend that Leonard Lee book on sharpening, and not just for sharpening -- it explains the physics behind what you're doing with your blade when you cut wood.

Regards,
Tom

**Pappy** · 06-18-2007, 05:28 PM

I will disagree with Jeff on one point about Stanley bench planes. The Type 19 planes made from 1948-1961 are generally considered the last of the good ones made by Stanley. If you go this route, avoid any Stanley bench plane that is finished in blue or marron. Those are Type 20 and later. They went back to the black color but these are painted instead of the original Jappaned finish.

The color thing doesn't necessarily apply to block planes.

Questions on planes

Questions on planes

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