how much are your fingers worth???

[Howard]

You learn new things every day. I was perusing the latest issue of Wood Magazine and saw an ad for a Sawstop table saw. Intrigued, I looked up their website and the machine is amazing. A hot dog can stop the blade instantly and it disappears under the table. Imagine if this was a finger. There was only one drawback... the price... holy cow! Set up with a fence was around $3000! The technology is pretty incredible and would be worth the cost if you had to use it only once. That's the interesting part. I routinely keep my fingers at least 4 to 6 inches away from the blade. One cannot have enough respect for a machine that can take a finger(s) in a heartbeat. Does anyone have one of these? $3000 is huge amount of money for one tool but how much is peace of mind worth?

[Tequila]

The SawStop comes up as a topic every few months. Lots of people here have opinions about the safety, cost, technology, and history of the SawStop. Here's a few posts you might want to read:

http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=16970
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=13034
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=12932
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=10094
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=4532
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=4549

[Jeffrey Schronce]

how much are your fingers worth???

Economically, $3000 - $7000 depending upon which digit is lost. Thumbs and index fingers are much more valuable than pinkies. Based upon the drive through Philly this morning, many people value their middle finger the most. These values based upon scheduled Workers Compensation Rates in the state of CA, though pretty standard for most states.
Psychologically and from a work loss it can vary greatly. Certainly loss of a thumb and index finger causes much more work loss than the same injury for a newspaper delivery person.
If you have a cabinet shop, yes it is definately worth it IMHO. Your workers compensation experience is likely to be better, thus directly resulting in lower premiums and lost worker production. Additionally, it certainly conveys that the employer is concerned about the employees welfare.
These answers are probably not what you were looking for in your rhetorical question, but for any small biz owners out there I think the saw is a positive expected value move. Also seems like a great idea for education institutions.
Only problem I could see with the saw is employees testing hot dogs out on the saw, resulting in those safety cartridges having to be replaced. They were a couple hundred from what I recall (figuring cartridge and blade replacement). I mean wouldn't you just HAVE to throw an old worn out blade on the saw, gather a few buddies around and play a game of dare? Also, I am not positive of "no accidental triggers".
One thing we questioned when I showed this to a group of Risk Managers was, if the blade stops due to current conducted through the human body, why does it stop for a hot dog? Does the hot dog conduct the humans current? Couldn't that be transfered through moist wood?

[wassaw998]

Not quite as simple as current being conducted THROUGH the human body, the device is detecting a change in an electrical signal that is being monitored, thus, the hot dog also triggers the device, and, yes, a chunk of WET wood will also:

http://www.sawstop.com/how-it-works-overview.htm

[final_t]

Ignoring the safety features, the SS model appears to be actually a very good saw, comparing very well against the Powermatic and others.

If you feel you need the saw stop device, then you need to SERIOUSLY reconsider how you are using the saw. If you are keeping your fingers any closer than 4-6" to the front or top of the blade, you're careless. The same goes for a router table, bandsaw, etc.

You can get a very nice pushstick from Woodcraft for about $16. The Gripper is often on sale for $50-$60. If your saw model is support, the Shark is available for it. That's just a small list of what you can get that are not just safety items, but also help you work better.

[final_t]

I mean wouldn't you just HAVE to throw an old worn out blade on the saw, gather a few buddies around and play a game of dare? Also, I am not positive of "no accidental triggers".
One thing we questioned when I showed this to a group of Risk Managers was, if the blade stops due to current conducted through the human body, why does it stop for a hot dog? Does the hot dog conduct the humans current? Couldn't that be transfered through moist wood?

What did, if anything, the Risk Manager say about mitigation of the risk in the first place?

[crokett]

I mean wouldn't you just HAVE to throw an old worn out blade on the saw, gather a few buddies around and play a game of dare? Also, I am not positive of "no accidental triggers".

Yup. I know that if I had one that one day I would want to see if it really works. That's just me. Now as regards other safety measures such as featherboards, push sticks, etc. I don't look at sawstop (or any other safety device) as a replacement for another. Rather, it is redundancy. So just because I use featherboards doesn't mean I stop using a push stick. In any case, I wouldn't ever buy a 3000.00 tablesaw, safety features or no.

[ejs1097]

According to my Personall Accident Insurance, my thumb and index finger are worth 25% of $50,000. The other fingers aren't worth a penny.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Not quite as simple as current being conducted THROUGH the human body, the device is detecting a change in an electrical signal that is being monitored, thus, the hot dog also triggers the device, and, yes, a chunk of WET wood will also:

http://www.sawstop.com/how-it-works-overview.htm

BY the human body?

[LarryG]

BY the human body?

Basically, as I understand it, the SawStop trigger measures impedance (resistance to flow of electrical current), and this value for a human body is a known value. When the SawStop detects a matching impedance (which I'm guessing is a range with a suitably large safety margin), it fires.

A hot dog has similar electrical characteristics to human flesh, which is why they use a noble tube steak to demonstrate the device.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

What did, if anything, the Risk Manager say about mitigation of the risk in the first place?

In this case we were looking at a woodworking shops in public Jr/Sr high schools. The table saw was obviously the greatest concern in most cases, though the lathe was of concerna as well (due to kids wearing baggy clothing). Most schools did not have lathes so that was not as concerning as TS, which practically all shops had.
We felt like the SawStop was an excellent opportunity to reduce liabilty for the school system. Typically we found that schools had higher end equipment in their schools ie top end cabinet saws such as Unisaws and high end contractor saws such as Jets better models. The cost difference between those higher end units and the SawStop were not that great (compared to BT3 memebers who find killer deals on everything and making the SawStop gap much greater). The skill level is little to no concerning the users of the TS. That is the greatest risk. We also found that of the sites reviewed (can't remember how many . . . maybe 8?) one had feather boards and 4 had push sticks! So teacher apathy was pretty strong factor as well.
As far as the schools risk management program, we are pretty much it. Risk Transfer to the insurance company. Avoidance is not practical, except to suggest that students who are taking the class for an easy grade shouldn't be on the TS or those types of equipment. They should do the sanding! LOL! Reduction (term used for mititgation) was suggestion of SawStop, proper safety feature utlitization, blade guards always beeing installed, clothing issues with lathes, etc. The department is publishing a paper on shop safety in public schools this year. I am relatively certain that I can post a copy of the paper on this site and shall do so. It may be published on the web site too, I'll let you know.

[vaking]

I also saw an article comparing cabinetmaker saws. I think it was in FWW, don't remember exactly. What caught my attention - the first place was split between new Powermatic and Sawstop. There is no doubt both are top notch saws but the major difference between the 2 winners - sawstop has the new safety feature at a price of $1000 over the price of Powermatic. The magazine awarded the first place to both. In other words - the magazine did not take points down for high price and did not give extra credit for safety. In the opinion of FWW that means that extra safety for $1000 is a fair deal. Some are prepared to pay it, some are not - personal choice. If I were choosing a saw for school - I would pay it. If I am a hobbyist woodworker - I doubt it. If you were given an option to install a sawstop feature on your BT3100 at a cost of $1000 would you do that? The questions about how it recognizes finger vs hotdog vs wet wood are valid questions. This is a new technology, it has scientific basis but anything new requires tuning and polishing before it becomes mature technology. Every false positive on the sawstop comes at a cost of $200. I think I will let other people get all the kinks out before I put my money into it. Table saw is definitely a dangerous tool but so are 10 other tools in my shop. Nothing can replace common sense. Even on a table saw kick-back produces more accidents than cut fingers.

[Tom Miller]

I think it would be difficult to market these based on the vague value of a finger, but rather the more concrete value of reduced workman's comp payments, or insurance premiums, or the cost of filling in for a recuperating worker, etc.

In other words, they'll be selling to cabinet shops, industrial schools, etc.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Regards,
Tom

[final_t]

The department is publishing a paper on shop safety in public schools this year. I am relatively certain that I can post a copy of the paper on this site and shall do so. It may be published on the web site too, I'll let you know.

That would be great - I know that many of us here would like to see that, and could in fact get some use out of it. You might want to consider asking them to allow it to be sent & published in some WW magazines (Wood, PWW, FWW etc) in order to bring up the level of safety, esp. in schools and training workshops and shows (which we ALL have complained about).

[scorrpio]

If you ever seen those lighted bathroom mirrors that turn on/off when you touch the metal frame, you've seen the same tech that SawStop works off.

I personally think that SawStop is a good investment for places that have other people using their tablesaws - way less liability that way. However, a saw that is to be used only by owner....

First off, as pointed above, if you work in a way that would make Sawstop a good thing to have, you are RECKLESS. Many people argue that we all drive with airbags in our cars, and it doesn't make us want to crash into things. Well, major difference: in your shop, your safety is in your hands. You are not at the mercy of some idiot who might decide to switch lanes with you in his blind spot.

Sawstop still gives you no remedy for clothing getting caught on the blade. It also will not prevent kickback. It is also, in my opinion, more destructive than it ineeds to be. I am sure that the system could be implemented to work without ruining the blade.