how useful is a jointer, really?

[gjat]

He's talking about face jointing a board. If the face isn't flat to begin with, how do you flatten it without a jointer? Let's say there is a cup to the board.

I don't. I haven't used wood that is so expensive that I had to use a cupped board. I build for need and usefullness, not as an indulgent hobby. I've built beds, toyboxes, book cases, desks, nightstands, tv cabinet out of pine. For the price of a dedicated jointer or a planer, I probably could buy all the wood for all those projects.
When I joined boards to make panels, I use pretty flat boards and sanded and checked with a straight edge. It doesn't look like it was factory made, but it doesn't look like it was made before steel tools were invented. LOL

[Knottscott]

Uneven faces on what? Like a door panel? I used a belt sander, 1/3 sheet sander, then palm sander. Came out good enough. Mind you, it wasn't a tea cabinet for the Queen.

Even when I've used S4S lumber (4 sides square), it really isn't....and rough sawn....forget it. The jointer gives me a flat face and an adjacent 90 degree edge, which means I start running out of excuses for goofing it up! Squaring up the stock is usually the first place I start all my projects....seems to work for Norm and David Marks too. I'd guess it'd save time sanding surfaces down too.

[gjat]

Even when I've used S4S lumber (4 sides square), it really isn't....and rough sawn....forget it. The jointer gives me a flat face and an adjacent 90 degree edge, which means I start running out of excuses for goofing it up! Squaring up the stock is usually the first place I start all my projects....seems to work for Norm and David Marks too. I'd guess it'd save time sanding surfaces down too.

Heck. If I had Norm's $$ and corporate sponsership, I'd have a dedicated planer for each different type of wood. LOL.
But the sanding time is substantial. Hence my efforts to build a 24" thickness sander... But I've done okay without. Useful? Yes! An absolute necessity?, Not necessarily.

[Russianwolf]

I don't. I haven't used wood that is so expensive that I had to use a cupped board. I build for need and usefullness, not as an indulgent hobby. I've built beds, toyboxes, book cases, desks, nightstands, tv cabinet out of pine. For the price of a dedicated jointer or a planer, I probably could buy all the wood for all those projects.
When I joined boards to make panels, I use pretty flat boards and sanded and checked with a straight edge. It doesn't look like it was factory made, but it doesn't look like it was made before steel tools were invented. LOL

where do you buy your wood? With a jointer (either power or handtool) you can start using rough lumber that is usually half the cost of finished wood from Lowes or HD (and sometimes even less than that).

Example. A pine 1x6x8 is $12.39 from Lowes and is 4 bf (or 3.10/bf). The mill I get my lumber from has pine for $1.40 per BF for Clear stock. that comes to $5.60 for the same board. Now, If I spend $300 on a jointer and another $300 on a planer, I will recoup the cost after 353 bf of wood. And as most of us know, 100bf doesn't go a long way. The book cases I'm about to make (5 foot tall, 16 inches deep and 30 inches wide with 5 shelves) will be 48 bf each.

Now, I paid about $200 each for my jointer and planer, so I needed only about 200 bf of wood to make them pay for themselves. Heck, I bought my planer before I bought my BT.

[Russianwolf]

YES! i'd definitely like to pick up a few old planes! a big old badazz jackplane would be sweeeet. how do you use it to get 2 square adjoining sides though?,or would i just use em' for face joining.

short answer: practise.

long answer: once you plane one face flat, you would turn it up on edge and plane the edge square to that face. you would need to use a combination square or something similar to check it for square. Then you could use the same process on the other two faces to get S4S lumber (if you wanted to).

This is the same technique they use in the framework of timber frame houses. A plane, square and chisel are all they need.

[scorrpio]

As long as your projects primarily involve plywood and milled pine from places like HD, jointer definitely can be done without. Though have to say I recall that for one of my early pieces (a pine side table) I had to go through like 60 boards at local HD before finding 6 that were properly flat and straight.

As your skills grow and you decide to tackle woods like maple or oak, getting rough sawn instead of pre-milled at BORG will have you saving not $1.70 per bf, but more like $6-8/bf. Go for even more exotic woods, and good luck finding them pre-milled and at a price below insane. And ability to mill your own opens to you the wonderful world of dumpster diving for trashed wood, of appropriating fallen trees, and other sources of free or near-free wood.

But till then, you can bide your time. But unless your ambitions don't go beyond ply and pine, be on the lookout for a good deal on a decent jointer.

[Russianwolf]

As long as your projects primarily involve plywood and milled pine from places like HD, jointer definitely can be done without. Though have to say I recall that for one of my early pieces (a pine side table) I had to go through like 60 boards at local HD before finding 6 that were properly flat and straight.

As your skills grow and you decide to tackle woods like maple or oak, getting rough sawn instead of pre-milled at BORG will have you saving not $1.70 per bf, but more like $6-8/bf. Go for even more exotic woods, and good luck finding them pre-milled and at a price below insane. And ability to mill your own opens to you the wonderful world of dumpster diving for trashed wood, of appropriating fallen trees, and other sources of free or near-free wood.

But till then, you can bide your time. But unless your ambitions don't go beyond ply and pine, be on the lookout for a good deal on a decent jointer.

another example to tie in what Scorrpio is saying. S3S Cocobolo is $23.10/bf at Woodworkerssource.com right now shipped (20bf pack). I can get rough sawn cocobolo locally for $12.50/bf . I save $10.60 per bf. so the savings on that 20 bf pack just bought a decent used planer or jointer at $212. and if I make two of those bookcases, what could I buy with the $1060?

[SteveJ]

I tried to get by with s4s lumber from HD, including pine, and nearly gave up
woodworking out of frustration. No matter what they tell you, it stilled needs to be milled. Since I bought my jointer and planer I enjoy every minute I'm in the shop. ....... Steve

[drumpriest]

I agree with SteveJ. I get S2S and S4S mostly, because I have some suppliers that don't completely rob you. (the BORG robs you, no doubt). Anyway, I still plan my requirements knowing that I'll at least be jointing and ripping stuff down off of the jointed edge. I often get away without having to face joint and plane the other side, but it's sure nice to have it there when I need it.

[tribalwind]

thanks for all the feedback on this' !

think what i'll do is move her into basement storage till the time comes that i need it.
for the time being i can probably get by with other milling methods,for the small ammount i need to do.

[footprintsinconc]

questions

i am new to wood working, i just finished making cabinets and cabinet doors using 4/4 red oak from woodworkersource.

reading all of the posts has me a little confused. what is s2s, s3s and s4s. i guess the red oak that i bought from wood workers must be milled? where do i look to see if there is a local supplier of unmilled wood so that i can save more as some of the posts mentioned? and what is face jointing?

[SARGE..g-47]

Evening Omar..

S2S = surfaced 2 sides S3S = surfaced 3 sides S-4-S = etc...............

Face jointing is done on a jointer.. You are surfacing the face (broad portion of a piece of stock) to get any cup, bow or twist that exist after drying to get a staight piece of stock. You also face joint an edge. You have to get one edge and one face square before taking the stock to the TS to rip the other edge square. The final face goes to the thickness planer to smooth and achieve the thiickness you need.

These steps can vary and other machines and hand tools used, but I won't go into detail till you digest what I just said.

Hopefully, someone will post the web-site that finds a hard-wood supplier for you locally. I can't remember the site exactly but it's something like
www.hardwoodlocator dot com or something similar. Run a google for Hardwood suppliers in whatever state you're in.

Regards as I'm hitting the rack as late in EST...