Brand New Shop - Need Design Help

[Woodboy]

As with many of you, my wood “shop” was the sides and front of an unheated crowded two car garage where I would have to move the cars and tools out for each project. Not very conducive for winter projects. My wife and I are considering our dream home that includes a three car garage and a walk out large basement. In consideration for me giving up the side load garage with a “bump-out” area which would have been my new shop area, I can instead use part of the heated finished walkout basement. The dedicated shop room could be as big as 15’x 20’+/-, or slightly smaller. Balance of basement will be finished living area, so I need to isolate noise, dust, etc.

How should I design it and what should I include (not tools, features). I assume lots of at least 20 amp AC outlets and maybe a 220 volt line for good measure. What type of dust control should I use (home has forced air heat)? Any ideas on noise insulation? What would, or how would you it differently if you could start over designing a small shop? Wood storage/shelving ideas? Any publications or articles that might help? Remember I will be on budget since I just bought a new bigger home.

Any help will be appreciated.

[JR]

Woodboy,

The Wood Magazine Idea Shop 2000 has a shop about the size of the one you propose. It, and the others at that site, shoul provide you with plenty of ideas for layout, cabinets, storage, etc.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/sto...ry/data/62.xml

Good Luck,
JR

[Thalermade]

quote:Originally posted by Woodboy


What would, or how would you it differently if you could start over designing a small shop? Wood storage/shelving ideas? Any publications or articles that might help? Remember I will be on budget since I just bought a new bigger home.

Any help will be appreciated.

For noise reduction, I will say build a room inside a room. Meaning avoid your shop walls touching the ceiling (floor joists above) or your walls directly sharing studs with the finished area walls. Think about where your ac/heat ducts will be. Noise is easily transmitted as vibrations through the studs and ducts.

My DC and table saw hardly make noise, conmpared to sanding projects on top of a workbench that is attached to a wall.

Plan for a DC and an air cleaner/filter. Try to get a window in your shop so you can evacuate fumes.


Have fun.

[Tom Miller]

I've got one of just about everything in 215 sq. ft., so I think you should be fine for space. When placing tools (e.g. table saw, band saw, miter saw, planer, etc.) allow for as much infeed and outfeed as possible (8ft each would be great).

Design in at least 4" duct for DC. S&D PVC works well, and is available at HD. I haven't seen any signs of our basement being any dustier than usual, and that's all I run (no air cleaner). I don't circulate house air through the shop, though.

If you plan to have HVAC supply and return in your shop, make the return large and build a filter holder for it with, say, 1 micron filtrete furnace filter. (****, that's a good idea -- I just thought of that! I'm going to do that myself when I get home. And that should help keep the humidity in my shop down, too. Hey, this isn't all about you! )

OK, I'm back.

You might consider having a subpanel (at least 60A, as much as 100A) in your shop. This has an added safety advantage -- you can power down the whole shop when you leave. Keep the light circuit separate, and maybe keep some outlets separate, too, so you can keep charging cordless drill batteries.

What living space will be above the shop? Ours is a two story, with all bedrooms upstairs which means I can work late at night even without a finished shop ceiling. Otherwise, I'd look into that spray foam stuff (professional grade, not DIY), and then sheet rock the ceiling with sound deadening material between the sheet rock and the joists.

Do the shop walls with plywood -- you can attach stuff wherever you want.

That's all I've got for now.

Regards,
Tom

[dlminehart]

One idea for minimizing sound transmission between shop and rest of basement is for your divider wall to use 2x6 floor and ceiling plates instead of the usual 2x4. Then, alternate the side of the 2x6s that your 2x4 wall studs connect to, and put more twice as many 2x4s. You'll then have something that looks like this from the top (except that the | 2x4 studs each go 3-1/2" into the 5-1/2" plate width, not just halfway.)

___________________________
| | | |
___ | ______ | ______ | _____ |

This keeps the sound vibrations on one side of the wall from pushing, via studs, on the other side of the wall, and thereby transmitting the sound. You can enhance this effect by "threading" insulation between the studs, so even the air between the panels gets its vibrational transmittion attenuated. You can also add sound board (available for a few dollars a 4x8 sheet at HD near the insulation) under the wall sheathing, to further reduce sound transmission. For the scale of project you're considering, the additional cost of 15 extra 2x4s, a couple 2x6s instead of 2x4s, and a few sheets of sound board would certainly be worth it.

[mr.g]

Here is a link to some free articles on setting up shop by Workbench Magazine; http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/mai...bbasics01.html
You might want to read the article about sound proofing a basement shop. They also have an online tool for laying out/planning your shop layout for tools, workbenches, lumber racks, etc.
Hope this helps.

[crokett]

This thread has some good info - I am looking at the all the same issues in the next couple months.

[LarryG]

I'm going to take the contrarian position on this one and ask, "Are you REALLY sure you want this basement space instead of a portion of the garage?"

IMO a basement location that adjoins occupied living space is just about the last place a shop ought to be. Look at the responses you've gotten thus far ... good ideas all, but the subtext is that you're going to invest a **** of a lot of time, effort, and money trying to keep noise and dust out of the living areas, and it is almost guaranteed that you will still end up with a less than satisfactory arrangement.

Further, basements rarely have more than eight feet of headroom, and sometimes less, even in brand-new construction. Garages OTOH will often have nine feet or more due to the step-down from the first floor platform to the garage slab. Unless all your projects are fairly small and built of short pieces of wood, you'll really appreciate having all the headroom you can get.

With the basement location, you may be limited to that 15x20 room. With the garage location, however, temporary expansion space is right at hand in the form of the driveway. Also, it's usually a lot easier to move materials into a garage than into a basement, even a walk-out basement (if nothing else, it's a longer carry from the driveway to the door).

I realize it's difficult to make a shop and vehicles coexist, and I'm not trying to claim a garage is the ideal location for a shop (that would be a completely separate building), but I do think a portion of a large garage is a better choice than a basement in most cases.

One last thought: if the garage bump-out is large enough for your shop, you can use the money you'd spend trying to contain the dust and noise in the basement location to insulate and heat the bump-out. IOW if you're going to spend the extra money, spend it in the way that gives you the best overall result.

[Woodboy]

Larry’s comments reflect my most recent thinking. Dedicating a room in a walkout basement, even with 10 foot ceilings is a big commitment. In my limited experience table saw sawdust is fairly easy to deal with, but “sanding” sawdust it both the most unhealthy and hardest to keep contained. Much easier in a garage than an inside room, surounded by living space.
My previous projects have been large – single and double Adirondack chairs, sofa table, storage sheds, crown molding, etc. The intended new house garage is a triple bay, we have three cars, but in the next couple of years will be down to two and I may be able to get a bump out added anyway. Perhaps I should create a dream garage instead – space heater, better insulation, recessed can lighting, etc.

What would the most desirable electrical design and capacities look like for a small “garage” type shop?

[Tom Miller]

quote:Originally posted by LarryG

...you're going to invest a **** of a lot of time, effort, and money trying to keep noise and dust out of the living areas...

Well, I would say you CAN spend a lot of time and money on this, but you may not have to.

In my case, my basement shop is under the front living room, and the bedrooms are a floor above that. So I can get away with unfinished walls and ceilings in my (otherwise finished basement) shop, and the noise is not a problem (trust me, I'd know if it was!).

To control dust I have a DC, but nothing else. I don't get noticeable dust outside the shop. If my shop were in the garage, I might actually need better dust control. The film of dust I get on my tools would not go over well on the cars, etc.

Living in Minnesota, I would lose a minimum of 5 months shop time if I was in the garage. [}] So, all in all, my decision to move to the basement was a no-brainer. But it's not ideal for all the other reasons Larry mentioned.

Sounds like your decision is not so clear cut. But whichever way you lean, there'll be some experienced advice here for the asking.

Regards,
Tom
Re: electric in the garage -- same general advice as I gave for a basement shop.

[DrChas]

Lets see. I just finished the first stages of putting up a shop that is 16 by 20. Things I did that I like:

a separate subpanel (mine is 60 amp)

I put in multiple 20 amp circuits. It is good to have them close together. The wall that works best for me has two circuits on it, one at the baseboard level, one at cabinet height. The nice thing is that you can plug in two big motors, say a sander AND a shop vac without having the cords snaking all over the floor.

A 20 amp circuit on the ceiling that will someday go for an air cleaner

A couple of 220 volt circuits. You never know. I actually switched my jointer to 220 because it sat right in front of one of the plugs.

I put in a separate vented closet for the dust collector and compressor (neither of which I own, so I don't know if it was a good idea). The dust collector closet has a 220 circuit with a switch near the front of the shop. The logic being I can switch the DC on and off from that convenient location (we'll see if that works)

Lots of lights. I have <s>8</s> (actually I have 6, I just checked) 4 foot double bulb florescents in the 16 by 20 space. They have pull strings to turn them off on each fixture, but I have never seen the reason to turn one off.

Everything on wheels and double duty where possible.

I put the table I intended to be my "bench" on wheels. I am not convinced that was the best idea I ever had. The theory was good, but it didn't work so well in practice!

A designed in space for lumber storage!

Wall space for storage of tools (my shop has too many windows and not enough wall storage space.

[LarryG]

Tom: there are definitely pluses and minuses either way you go. To some extent I was playing devil's advocate ... and the heating issue you mentioned can certainly be significant depending on where one lives.

Woodboy: A few specific things that come to mind regarding the design and layout of a shop (I am currently in a space I regard as temporary, plan to build a new outbuilding within the next three or four years, so I'm doing a lot of thinking about this overall subject):

1. A place for everything so you can keep everything in its place, which makes for a neater and more efficient shop (i.e., less time wasted finding a needed tool). How organized a person you are will influence how well this works, but I have observed that a lot of shops live in a perpetually messy state not so much because their owners are, um, slobs but because the storage systems suck.

2. As much stuff behind doors, and in drawers, as possible. You yourself mentioned the reason: sanding dust. It gets everywhere, it is difficult to control, and the more stuff you have out in the open the more places there are for dust to accumulate ... until you come along and stir it up and now the dust is airborne again, getting into your clothes and your lungs and the final coat of poly you just wiped onto your current project.

3. Also related to storage, try not to simply put stuff where it seems to fit but instead put it where it logically needs to be, in terms of overall work flow. The more you need/use an item, the more important this becomes -- for example, clamps need to be right at the assembly table, not six or ten feet away. OTOH something like band saw blades don't necessarily have to be stored right next to the band saw since they are not changed that often and a few extra steps are no big deal.

4. Design your lumber racks so that you can pull any piece out from the END, preferably either end, rather than only from the side. Give it lots of vertical dividers so there will never be too much weight on any one piece, making the board you want easy to extract no matter where it is in the rack.

5. As Tom says, pay particular attention to the infeed/outfeed requirements for your various tools. Obviously they can overlap, but this is the bane of all small shops and really deserves some heavy thought.

[Tom Miller]

quote:Originally posted by LarryG

Tom: there are definitely pluses and minuses either way you go. To some extent I was playing devil's advocate ...

Hey, that's a good thing!

Since I had listed a lot of things you could do to minimize noise, I wanted to point out that you don't necessarily need to. (I never would have guessed I'd be able to get away with unfinished walls/ceiling.)

Woodboy -- I just thought of one other very important point. Wherever you plan to put your shop, get your stuff there on day one and mark your territory. There's no going back once the space is being used for something else by someone else. 'nuff said.

Regards,
Tom

[JR]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Miller
There's no going back once the space is being used for something else by someone else. 'nuff said.

Truer words were never spoken...

[vaking]

I live now in a finished basement. It is always warm and cozy. Drop-ceiling provides fair noise insulation - my family does not complain about noise. Dust isn't a problem either - I have a DC and it collects very well. The biggest problem is fumes when I need to apply finish. Fortunately my house is old (1927) and it has something that used to be a coal storage. This is effectively a room outside a house in the basement. It is not heated but that is where I apply finishes.
My basement does not have a separate entrance - delivering wood isn't easy. My basement is just over 6' tall - sometimes (but not often) I wish had access to joists - it would have given me extra height. Also sometimes I wish I had access to bare walls - in a finished space you cannot put any load on walls. Forget the idea of lumber storage on hooks. In other words - finished basement is a mixed blessing.