Alternate method for hanging cabinets

[cabinetman]

LOL, I promise to keep the secret, That is even easier! I have an old sears jack that is probably close to 35 lbs and a bottle jack. I will have to see if the saddle comes off of the sears unit. That's a great tip, thanks!!

Does this mean you install you base first to use this method or do you also have a rolling cabinet jack? I had thought of building one of these - fairly cheap to make, about $40, the HF winch is probably 1/2 the cost ;P

The floor jack I use is a Craftsman. It's a small one. The saddle is just held in place with a stud and a pull out clip...no drilling necessary. I don't use any roll around lifts. I use whatever is there to space up for the jack. It could be the base cabinets just put in place (if there are base cabinets), or you can use the washer and dryer. Putting plywood or a series of plywood pieces to use as spacers work just fine. If you need more height than just a few pieces, make a dead man.

Just some general tips about installation. I don't use "wood screws"...the tapered kind. I find just a coarse thread screw works best. It would be a rare occasion that I wouldn't install a back in a cabinet. They square the cabinet and help hold the box together during handling, delivery and installation.

As for horizontal hang rails, one at the top is all that's necessary. It's easier to maintain the integrity of squareness during installation. Using one at the bottom is not needed if you have the top one screwed to studs. If a cabinet has a bottom one, screwing that one to the wall can throw off the frontal plane of the cabinet. IOW, it can twist the shape of the box as it's drawn to the wall so the doors may not fit properly. That method was used in cases where the installation may be questionable. I wouldn't configure a cabinet that way or suggest it.

You may not have thought of this, but three boxes with square or rectangular shapes installed in an alcove, will leave a void at the bottom where the fronts touch, and the backs go to the wall. If you aren't concerned about it, that's fine. If you are, you have a few options. You can extend one of the floors past the cabinet to fill the void.

Or, you can make a filler piece that will fit flush to the undersides of both cabinets. That would work out to be just a square or a rectangle. It can be made to install from the bottom if short wings are put on the sides of the piece that slide up the outside walls of the two cabinets. Then it can be adjusted and held in place with screws from the inside of the cabinets.

Or, you can make the cabinets open ended where they meet in the corners. IOW, instead of ends just make a vertical post between the top and the bottom (front and back) to carry the hinges. If this is done, either the two side cabinets, or the middle cabinet would have the floors and tops extend to close up the gaps. If configured this way, the corners aren't lost, and can be used for storage. It creates a completely open cabinet from both directions.

Or, extend the ends of one of the cabinets that venture into the corner. That would give extra storage, but those corners may be a bit of a strain to access.

Another tip. Since the cabinets are frameless, there is nothing at the fronts of two mating cabinets to help align the fronts and hold them together. You may want to install a block that runs the height of the vertical connection where two cabinets come together. That would be installed behind and used to align and connect the front vertical corners. Unless the doors are full inset, you have an overlay condition where the edges of the doors are next to eachother.

If you lay out the cabinet configuration on paper, or in full size on a piece of plywood, you can draw a filler strip from the front to create a continuous look other than the vertical spacing between the door edge and the spacer. I suggest doing a drawing full size of the condition to figure door widths, and hinge selection for overlay amounts. In some cases depending on the widths of the legs of the spacer, the two cabinets may be separated to allow for it. Doing this depends on how finished and fitted you want the installation to look.

If you use no spacer at the front, there will be a small void where the two doors meet from different directions.

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[LCHIEN]

Are you going to have doors on the cabinets, I presume? Here's an idea.
Build each cabinet as a four-sided box similar to what you have shown, except that it will not have a back, the back will be more or less open and use the existing wall as the back of the cabinet as it will be visible when the doors are open. This will gain you almost one inch of interior depth - I.e. 15.75".

Put a cross piece 1x4 across the back. You have to notch the sides to inset the 1x4 flush to the back, like you showed in your design. Screw the 1x4 to the verticals with about three, 3" #8 or #9 FH wood screws on each side, making sure the box is square. Place another one down low. I suggest putting the top one so that it's bottom edge is exactly 12" from the outside top of the box. Having the top cross member lower (12", compared to your design) lessens the chance that the vertical above the cross member will break off under load.The bottom one is not so critical, place it where convenient and not in the way of any shelves you might use. inset it and fasten it the same way as the top cross member.

Now you have a open front and back box which is square and won't rack because of the cross members. THe cross members will bear the load, that's why so many long screws, and 2 cross members. There will be both a shear load and a tensile load on the screws.

To install, screw a 1x4 cleat about 2 inches shorter than the cabinet interior width to the wall so that its top is a hair more than 12" from the top of the ceiling where you want the cabinet to touch. If you are really chicken, add another cleat that will be right below the lower cross member. Now you have one or two wall mounted members on which the box will rest, temporarily.

One more thing, take a 1x2 by 6-8 inches. mark the center of the top wall mounted 1x4 and screw the center of the 1x2 to the 1x4 center, make the 1.5" long screw just tight enoughh so that the 1x2 will rotate by hand but stay in position with friction. Set it horizontal.

Now for the one-man installation. Lift the box up near the ceiling and place the 1x4 cross member over the 1x4 top wall cleat. If you measured wight the top of the box will be against the ceiling and the top cross member will be resting on top of the top cleat and the bottom cross member will be resting on the bottom cleat. Rotate the 1x2 90 degrees so its vertical and it will be holding the box to the wall and keeping it from falling and leave you hands free.

Now being careful because all the box weight is retained by one screw (which is not carrying the weight - that should be borne by the cleats), You should be able to adjust the position right or left as needed. Install screws or lag screws holding the cross members to the wall into studs. Be generous, they'll keep the cabinet from falling off when loaded. I'd use 3" long, 1/4" lag screws with flat washers, about four or eight per cabinet. Drill a 3/16" pilot hole which should be 2"+ into the 2x4 stud edges.

Finally you can remove the two 1x4 temporary cleats below the cross members, the lag screws are holding the weight now. Or if you prefer, you can leave them in, their screws will help share the shear load on the lag screws.

[chopnhack]

LOL, I promise to keep the secret, That is even easier! I have an old sears jack that is probably close to 35 lbs and a bottle jack. I will have to see if the saddle comes off of the sears unit. That's a great tip, thanks!!

Does this mean you install you base first to use this method or do you also have a rolling cabinet jack? I had thought of building one of these - fairly cheap to make, about $40, the HF winch is probably 1/2 the cost ;P

found at http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...ft_Photos.html

[cabinetman]

This is sounding more and more like a two man job.... unless one is dead
I can't think of anything easier than building a deadman to sit on top of the laundry equipment, be a lot easier to shim too if its more narrow than the cabinet is wide. Good info! Thanks again. Frameless has quite a few gotchas it seems.

Lets talk about easy. I took a piece of plywood about 10" wide, and about 18" long. I drilled a through hole in the middle, and installed a 1/4-20 "T" nut. I have a few very small floor jacks. I took the saddle off of one, and then using a 1/4-20 bolt, mounted the board on top of the arm, through the old saddle hole.

The jack has about a 15" lift capability. Most of the time I can use just boards under it to take up the slack. Set the jack...position the cabinet on top, jack it up to where you want. Most of the time the board on the jack is towards the front of the cabinet, and the back of the cabinet slides up the wall. You may have to chock the wheels.

We are now into trade secrets...don't tell anyone.

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[chopnhack]

This is sounding more and more like a two man job.... unless one is dead
I can't think of anything easier than building a deadman to sit on top of the laundry equipment, be a lot easier to shim too if its more narrow than the cabinet is wide. Good info! Thanks again. Frameless has quite a few gotchas it seems.

[cabinetman]

Probably need to add one at the back for easy leveling too, right?

Not IMO. You may need the space in the back for installation, clearance and adjustment.


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[chopnhack]

Probably need to add one at the back for easy leveling too, right?

[cabinetman]

Hmm, that brings up a good point and another question.

In the laundry room scenario where the three units will be frameless and installed into a u shaped recess, should I install the units 1/4"-1/2" down from the ceiling to leave room for some type of molding? I assume with a full overlay door that I have not more than about 3/8"-1/2" from all edges (door reveal).

Also just realized that there is an AC register just ahead of the center cab.... I will have to measure its max drop from the ceiling to make sure the door will swing and clear that obstruction. I may have to shim the cabinet down some to clear it.

Obstructions, or possible interferences like A/C registers, light fixtures, scuttle openings have to be taken into account. Make sure you allow enough clearance. Since you have very little front leading edge to use to install a trim piece, make a backer strip to mount to the top front of the cabinet. It can be anything really as long as it provides some mounting surface.

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[chopnhack]

Hmm, that brings up a good point and another question.

In the laundry room scenario where the three units will be frameless and installed into a u shaped recess, should I install the units 1/4"-1/2" down from the ceiling to leave room for some type of molding? I assume with a full overlay door that I have not more than about 3/8"-1/2" from all edges (door reveal).

Also just realized that there is an AC register just ahead of the center cab.... I will have to measure its max drop from the ceiling to make sure the door will swing and clear that obstruction. I may have to shim the cabinet down some to clear it.

[cabinetman]

A less tense alternative is to make a simple 3 or 4 sided support off the washer/dryer. Same principle as installing the base cabinets first and then supporting the uppers off the base.

Jim

That's whatcha call a "deadman". I use one or two boxes (made up from scraps) to use for the height of uppers. I install...or put in place, the base cabinets first.

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[JimD]

Agreed, not real easy, a tense few minutes until the first screw bites. Your point about the molding at the top is a good one. For a shop situation, a piece of shoe molding would seem OK. The ledger on the wall would align the bottoms.

A less tense alternative is to make a simple 3 or 4 sided support off the washer/dryer. Same principle as installing the base cabinets first and then supporting the uppers off the base.

Jim

[cabinetman]

If you put a strip on the wall at the height of the bottom of the cabinet, start the screws in the hanging strip inside the cabinet and then put your drill on the washer or dryer, you should be able to lift the cabinet into position, hold it with one hand (left for me) and then drive the screw in with the other hand. I've also done this without the supporting strip.

Jim

I've done it like that, and placed the drill inside the cabinet. Unless there are grounds, pilot holes in the hang rail have to line up with the center of the studs. That all has to be predetermined. There are three cabinets that have to be aligned (with no face frame). Once installed the undersides should be in alignment...the tops can be trimmed with an add on moulding. Not that easy of an install.

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[JimD]

If you put a strip on the wall at the height of the bottom of the cabinet, start the screws in the hanging strip inside the cabinet and then put your drill on the washer or dryer, you should be able to lift the cabinet into position, hold it with one hand (left for me) and then drive the screw in with the other hand. I've also done this without the supporting strip.

Jim

[cabinetman]

A problem you could run into if you use a ledger strip, and want to go to the ceiling, is getting the cabinet to fit between the top of the strip and the ceiling. Since you need to install three, you might need some wiggle room to line them up. If you attempt to be tight to the ceiling, it may be difficult to impossible to get them to seat against the wall if the ceiling is off at all.

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[chopnhack]

Yes! That is an excellent idea. I had seen those before but thought they were way too pricey. I haven't figured out whether it is more economical to use up the 3/4" for the backs or to get another sheet of 1/4" prefinished on 1 side and add a hang rail on top of that. Will have to check availability and price tomorrow. Thanks for the ideas!