Electrical Question - Is this acceptable?

[poolhound]

Okay, now I get you. Replace *two* existing 15A breakers with one double, and then use the newly-vacated slot for an entirely new circuit, using the desired breaker rating and appropriate wire gauge.

Actually, thinking back, I am now pretty sure I used two half-size breakers for my lights. Your link took FOREVER to load, and when it finally did and I saw the price, I thought, "No, I didn't spend THAT much." The breakers I used cost the same three or four bucks as normal full-size breakers.

BTW I wasnt price shopping just looking for an illustration of what I meant by half width or double breakers. I am sure you can find cheaper than this.

[Rand]

One other point, do not put romex in conduit. If you are going to use romex just staple it to a 1x2 glued/screwed to the ceiling. If you want to use conduit then use THHN.

I am fairly certain that is against National Electrical code. My understanding is that you can't have romex running along a surface. If your home is inspected either for a remodel or when you try to sell it they will call you out on that and make you fix it.

[btalover]

Lots to respond to here.

Attached is a picture of my current panel and breaker setup. The breaker second from bottom on the left with the GO beside it is the circuit I will be using. Is that not already a half breaker? Would the breaker poolhound suggested replace that one with two smaller 15s?

To be honest, I really don't have the guts to go poking around in a live breaker box and I doubt killing the whole house while I fumble with this during a 95 degree day would win me any points with the family. Again, this is a budgetary issue, so hiring an electrician is out And no I don't know any.

LarryG, I don't think I understand what I would gain capacity-wise by running the wire all the way to the breaker box and double wiring it to the same breaker that controls the opener. Or is just a matter of doing it right?

The Romex thing has got me puzzled, but I am showing my ignorance again. That's why I am asking. My plan was to connect the Romex in the attic and attached it with staples along the ceiling joist to the drop point. Then come down the surface of the wall with conduit to a surface mounted electrical box. My thought was the the conduit would protect the Romex from damage. Plus, it looks better than having exposed yellow Romex tacked to the wall.

Rand, the outside of the box says to staple it every 4.5', and a lot of what is in the attic runs along joists. So I assume by surface you mean wall surface, not any surface at all?

This sure got complicated fast! I'm not sure what to do now. May go back to the extension cord idea.

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

[just started]

1. All the breakers shown in that pic are are already doubles.

2. Romex should not be put inside conduit due to lack of air circulation - the diameter of the copper and therefore the current capacity of wire, are calculated based on an expected temp exchange with the surroundings and running it in conduit raises that temp.

3. You may be correct about the current NEC not allowing that configuration any longer, I am not totally current on it.

[Tom Slick]

according to NEC, NM cable (romex) can be installed in short runs of conduit for physical protection.

If you wanted to be really anal you could strip the sheath off of the section of romex that you are going to pull though the conduit. It really wouldn't be necessary though.

Edit:
Here is the NEC wording

334.15(B) Protection from Physical Damage. (Schedule 80 Rigid Nonmetallic Conduit). Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means...

[poolhound]

1. All the breakers shown in that pic are are already doubles.

Unless I a misunderstanding what I see in the photo they are and they're not. They are doubles but each half of the double is still only one breaker wide. you can get doubles that will fit in what would ordinarily be a single breaker space. I think the type I had the HD link for would allow for 2 15A circuits in the sapce normally occupied by a single breaker. that may be why it cost ~$30.

Here is another example. I think they are known as Tandem breakers. This one is only $16. You do need to find the right type to match your panel.

http://doitbest.com/Fuse+Boxes-Square+D+Co.-model-QOT1515-doitbest-sku-528227.dib

[LarryG]

LarryG, I don't think I understand what I would gain capacity-wise by running the wire all the way to the breaker box and double wiring it to the same breaker that controls the opener. Or is just a matter of doing it right?

Well, we were arguably complicating things unnecessarily, but it was in the interests of giving you a better overall setup. So even though we were meddling, our hearts were pure.

Backing up, starting over, recapping:

There's nothing wrong with your plan to tap into the garage door opener circuit. You said it is apparently the only thing on that circuit; I presume it's a 15A breaker. Since a garage door opener is used so infrequently, tapping into this circuit would mean you would for all practical purposes have what amounts to a new dedicated 15A circuit just for your shop, to use however you wish. So you might want to do this, even if you also choose to do more.

There's no benefit to running Romex back to the panel and tying it into this same breaker (unless that happened to be a physically shorter run than to wherever else you can get at the opener circuit. In that case, you'd save a little work, and a little money on the copper, by making the connection at the panel; but there'd be no benefit electrically). Jon's suggestion, which I seconded, to run Romex to the panel assumed there was at least one vacant space, of the standard 1" size, into which you would install a new breaker -- thus creating an all-new circuit. This could be a 15A circuit, a 20A circuit, or a 30A circuit -- just choose your breaker size and use the appropriate wire gauge for that size. We suggested a 20A because your TS is probably rated at or near 15A, and a 15A motor should ideally be on a 20A circuit.

But, you said, the panel is full. Okay, I said ... you can still take a new run of Romex back to the panel and tie it onto some existing 20A breaker, as long as that breaker is not feeding some heavy load that will be running at the same time as your tools. The benefit of doing this is that you'd be tapping into a 20A circuit instead of the 15A door opener circuit.

Or, as Jon then deftly suggested, you could remove two of your existing full-size breakers and replace them with one like he linked to, or with two half-size breakers (1/2" thick vs the standard 1") like those Loring mentioned and like I used for the lighting in my shop. Either way, you would end up with two independently-operating breakers controlling two entirely separate circuits, but occupying only one physical space in the panel. This would free up the other space for a new breaker and an all-new circuit. (And you could, if desired, install two half-size breakers in this newly-vacated spot, giving you two new circuits for your shop.)

In short, these are just different options, various ways to either tie into 20A circuits rather than 15A, which can be marginal for a shop; or to get you some completely new and separate circuits for your shop that aren't being shared with anything else in the house.

Lastly, I agree with Jon that those breakers all appear to be doubles. But I don't see any that have their trip levers tied together. So, for electrical purposes, they're all singles regardless of their physical configuration. Given this new information, in order to free up a space in the panel, you'd remove one double breaker (2" wide) and replace it with one full-size (1") single breaker and two half-size (1/2") breakers, giving you three circuits where before you had only two.

Does that help? If anything's still unclear, holler and I'll try yet again.

On Romex vs. conduit ... I used the exception Tom cites in my shop; the Romex runs are exposed (and visible) between the ceiling joists, just under the attic decking; but where the Romex runs turn down the wall to outlets and switches I encased them in conduit for protection. I find it interesting that while the NEC says its okay to do this, it doesn't specify (AFAIK) how long the runs within conduit can be (in my case, they're about four feet). Also, unless something has changed, I don't think there's any prohibition per se against exposed Romex. This is done all the time in unfinished basements, garages, bonus rooms, and the like.

[sbs9]

Any words of wisdom appreciated!

My advice is to get your household wiring advice from electricians not DIYers.

The best place to do that is here:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/wiring/?5005

[poolhound]

Larry -great recap, nicely summarized.

[poolhound]

My advice is to get your household wiring advice from electricians not DIYers.

The best place to do that is here:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/wiring/?5005

SBS

With respect, I am sure we would all agree (see a recent thread about beware who you believe) that information gleaned from any source should be verified before taking it as gospel, however.....

Many of the folks on this forum are professionals (we have some electricians also) and if others are not "full on" electricians have significant experinece. The one thing we all have in common is WW shops and the issues of wiring these are well understood and similar in 90% of the cases. I had my shop rewired less than 2 months ago about 40% of the work I had done by an electricion the rest I did myself at the same time which was inspected and approved.

As soon as most WWers get a decent saw and a shopvac running you are at the limit of most 15A circuits, hence numerous discussion about this topic. the solutions are all very similar. Run 20A circuits, ideally back to the main panel or run a larger circuit (inc 220) to a sub panel.

Anybody consideing electrical work would be advised to discuss with a local electrician at a minimum to check on local code variations.

Given how most of the projects and tools discussed on this forum can maim or worse and numerous of our members have many years experience and are making a living with their craft I would like to think we are a tad better than a bunch of 'DIYers"

[Crash2510]

being that i work as an electician let me see if i can help you out.

larry nice recap. Actuall exposed romex must be protected when it comes down the walls exposed in basements garages etc. this protection is not required when it is in the ceiling.

also, if you plan on tapping into the garage door circuit i would make sure you know what is on that circuit before you decide to tap into it. (find its breaker, turn it off, and find out what doesn't work) If you decide this will work then you can make a splice either directly in its current box or cut the wire and splice it in its own box. although it has been mentioned earlier the new wire you run too your shop can be the same size or no more than 2 sizes smaller ie if 12-2 you could run (12-2, 14-2, 16, or bigger) to your shop this is nec for branch circuits as long as you do not exceed the current carrying capacity, but most likely you will need 12 wire because of the power tools.

was wondering when this house was built in many of the houses built in the last fifty years individual circuits were ran to almost everything. If you could find two circuits that were ran individually like lighting circuits you could tie these together in the panel and run them off the same breaker. this would open up spaces in the panel to be used elsewhere. Sometimes lighting and recs in the same room were ran seperately which would also be a good candidate.

[sbs]

SBS

With respect, I am sure we would all agree (see a recent thread about beware who you believe) that information gleaned from any source should be verified before taking it as gospel, however.....

...

Given how most of the projects and tools discussed on this forum can maim or worse and numerous of our members have many years experience and are making a living with their craft I would like to think we are a tad better than a bunch of 'DIYers"

With respect, I would say that the houshold wiring advice I have seen given on this board over the years is far worse than the average DIYers, especially since it is rarely given with any caveats (as in "I am not an electrician, and I've never even seen a copy of the NEC but this is how I did it in my shop"...)

Many of the code violations offered up as solutions on this board are FAQs on electrical forums - in the "what DIYers always do wrong" section.

Although I know the NEC moderately well, I am not an electrician, so I try to point people to where they can find electricians online who are willing to help them learn how to do the work in a manner both safe and legal.

I'll also suggest that you go to an electricians' forum and ask them if people with expertise in a field like woodworking are more or less likely than the general public to commit serious code/safety violations in electrical wiring.

[LarryG]

Although I know the NEC moderately well, I am not an electrician, so I try to point people to where they can find electricians online who are willing to help them learn how to do the work in a manner both safe and legal.

I won't speak for anyone else, but the answers I give on this forum come from a background of working alongside my dad, who was for many years a journeyman electrician. Have I, myself, ever drawn a paycheck as an electrician? No. But I've done my share of residential wiring, and I know what is and is not safe and, for the most part, what is or is not code-compliant.

But the jobs I worked with my dad were done some time ago, and so today, anytime I'm in doubt, I first put the question to our electrical consultant, who is a licensed electrical engineer specializing in designing the electrical systems for commercial buildings, from the pole- or pad-mount transformer all the way down to the individual switches and outlets. A man who, quite literally, works with the NEC immediately at hand every day of his life. Before wiring my last shop, four years ago, I ran a number of questions by him to make sure I would be doing everything right. I did it again before wiring my current shop, last year. And I've done it on at least two questions that came up here during the last two days, because I wanted to be certain I would not be giving bad advice.

Please feel free to cut-and-paste anything I wrote here to that forum you keep recommending, and let me know if any of the experts there have any heartburn with any of it.

[btalover]

Thanks for the recap LarryG. No offense taken on the "meddling." The Romex in conduit thing had me bummed out, but I think I am ok on that now that I have clarified how I am doing it.

To answer Crash2510's questions:

I have turned the breaker off and nothing else I could find quit working. It was off for more than an hour. I am going to use 12/2 for the extension. House was built in early 90's, with only the addition of a sun room at some point before I bought it. Not sure why it is crammed full of 1/2 breakers, but I presume they added at least two circuits for lights and outlets in the sunroom. Panel, as usual, has terrible markings as to what is what.

I appreciate all the input guys. I learned a few things, but as it stands I think I am going to go with my original plan for now. One of these days I will try to make the shop bigger and then get a subpanel, 220v, the works! Oh yeah, and bigger toys, er tools!

Much thanks!
-Steve

[poolhound]

Although I know the NEC moderately well, I am not an electrician, so I try to point people to where they can find electricians online who are willing to help them learn how to do the work in a manner both safe and legal.

good advise and we would always reccomend that anybody considering electrical upgrades consult a local electrician before taking the final step.

Lucky for us one of our actual electrician members did chime in on this thread also.