Follow-up questions on French cleats

[Anna]

I'm beginning to understand how it's done, but I have a few more questions to clarify things.

1. What's the best way to cut the bevel? I always assumed it's done on the table saw, but technically, I can probably also use a router, especially for really long cleats.

Which leads me to question 2: On a long wall, does the wall-mounted cleat have to preferably be a single piece of wood, or can I butt several shorter strips together?

How strong is a single row of cleats? For shop cabinetry, are two rows better, or would a single row be sufficiently strong?

And lastly, is the cleat glued to the wall, or are screws enough?

Thanks again for all the helpful hints.

Anna

[RayintheUK]

1. What's the best way to cut the bevel? I always assumed it's done on the table saw, but technically, I can probably also use a router, especially for really long cleats.

I use 3/4" stock, 5" to 6" wide. Pass it through the saw at 45 degrees.

2: On a long wall, does the wall-mounted cleat have to preferably be a single piece of wood, or can I butt several shorter strips together?

Either will do. If one long piece, the sides of the cabinets will need to be notched to fit over the wall cleat. This is a positive advantage, as it allows you to slide the cabinets along into position. You do not need to notch the outer sides of any run of cabinets. If you butt shorter pieces, make sure that they are absolutely level at the point of contact, otherwise the load may not be distributed evenly.

How strong is a single row of cleats? For shop cabinetry, are two rows better, or would a single row be sufficiently strong?

A single row will take a surprising amount of load. Remember that the load is mostly downwards, with very little outwards moment. This changes if the cabinets are made deeper (front to back) than, say, 12" - but this is rare for upper cabinetry in kitchens. Workshops can lead to all sorts of design changes, though, so if you think that the cabinets need a little more support, install a second row.

Positioning of the second row is, however, critical, otherwise there will be some weird load-sharing problems. I use a jig to position mine.

And lastly, is the cleat glued to the wall, or are screws enough?

Screws are enough, provided there are enough screws!

Ray.

[LarryG]

Can't add a lot to what Ray wrote, but a couple small items:

1. If you have concerns about a single cleat being adequate (and I agree, one is AMAZINGLY stout), you can make the half that goes on the wall wider and use two or even three screws at each stud. This accomplishes the same thing as a second cleat, but without the alignment issues, since the shear strength of the screws is the limiting factor.

2. One of the benefits of the French cleat system is the option to someday remove the cabinets and cleats and have to repair only a small amount of damage on the wall. If that's even a remote possibility, you probably won't want to glue the cleat to the wall.

BTW, I cut French cleats on my bandsaw, as that seems an easier and safer operation than using the table saw.

[cgallery]

If one long piece, the sides of the cabinets will need to be notched to fit over the wall cleat. This is a positive advantage, as it allows you to slide the cabinets along into position.

Any suggestions for how to notch the cabinets?

[cabinetman]

Anna

Great info so far. I can only add a trick. I always cut the clete on the TS. I set it up for 45 and the piece I pass through is wide enough to give two (2) pieces with a 45 with one pass. I'll second the motion on wide cleats, especially for the wall, where you might want to put two screws into a stud, and have some separation. Also, the clete in the top of the cabinet does wonders for stiffening, and the taller it is you can get more than one screw in through the ends, to help keep it from twisting.



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[LarryG]

I can only add a trick. I always cut the clete on the TS. I set it up for 45 and the piece I pass through is wide enough to give two (2) pieces with a 45 with one pass.

Oh, as opposed to just cutting a bevel on the edge of two separate pieces? Never occured to me to do it that way. I've only done it the way you describe.

A side benefit of which, BTW, is that the exact angle becomes moot; i.e., it doesn't have to be a 45, because the two halves cut from a single board will automatically have complementary bevels that fit back together perfectly.

[RayintheUK]

Any suggestions for how to notch the cabinets?

The notch needs to be larger than the side view of the wall cleat by the amount of bevel in the cupboard cleat, but a rectangular notch will do just as well. Calculate the clearance you need, mark it out and rout it away. Don't do the "outside" sides at the end of a run.

Oh, as opposed to just cutting a bevel on the edge of two separate pieces? Never occured to me to do it that way. I've only done it the way you describe.

When I said "I use 3/4" stock, 5" to 6" wide. Pass it through the saw at 45 degrees," I omitted to clarify that I cut it approximately in half.

A side benefit of which, BTW, is that the exact angle becomes moot; i.e., it doesn't have to be a 45, because the two halves cut from a single board will automatically have complementary bevels that fit back together perfectly.

Absolutely so - you just need to be careful if cutting long lengths after ripping the bevel. A quick witness mark will sort it out, but it's easy to forget!

Ray.

[cabinetman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryG
A side benefit of which, BTW, is that the exact angle becomes moot; i.e., it doesn't have to be a 45, because the two halves cut from a single board will automatically have complementary bevels that fit back together perfectly.

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You would want the greatest angle for the length of the bevel, for a better seat. The single cut theory had nothing to do with the incident at the "Grassy Knoll". It was brought up as a reminder to those who are new at set-ups, and procedures. BTW, I thought I heard someone say "Wow what a great idea!"



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[Anna]

Great information! Thanks, guys!

Let me see if I can summarize everything correctly:

1. To use as a cleat, one can go with hardwood (e.g. oak, maple; pine and poplar can be used for lighter loads), birch plywood, and maybe good quality shop ply and even MDF. All at least 3/4" thick.

2. The flat section of the cleat should be at least 3".

3. To attach to the wall, glue is not necessary, but the more screws, the better. But I don't think the screws should be too close together (like on a single stud) because that will probably weaken the joint more than strengthen it.

4. If there are doubts as to the strength, just make the cleats wider (>3").

5. "If you can see the bevel [you're attaching it the wrong way]."

6. To fit the cabinets over a continuous cleat, notch the sides with a router.

7. The bevels are cut with a table saw or a band saw.

8. In theory, the angle of the bevel is probably not important, but it should be as close to 45 degrees as possible to maximize the strength. It's something to do with torque, center of mass, and pivot points. (Okay, my physics is getting rusty, so correct me if I'm wrong )

Did I miss anything? I think I got all the information to build a cleat system for shop/garage cabinetry now. Thanks, guys!

[LarryG]

Cabman: I can't tell whether you're being facetious, so I hope what I wrote in my last reply didn't come out wrong. A person gets used to doing things a certain way, he tends to assume everyone does it that same way. I knew (or perhaps I should say, I thought I knew) that Ray was splitting his 5" - 6" piece down the middle even before I read his clarification. Beveling two boards is a legitimate alternative and you're right, some folks might not consider that there's a slightly faster/easier method.

Anna: Not missing anything that I can see, although I will say that two screws in one stud won't be a problem as long as they're, oh, maybe 2" apart.

Both: The angle should indeed be close to 45deg. I just meant that when one board is split to make the cleat, if the angle ends up a degree or two off 45, it doesn't matter (Ray's caveat aside).