I've been considering a 200 amp service upgrade

[Tom.Trout]

I've been considering a 200 amp service upgrade.

How much do you think it would cost?

How do they handle wires that are to short for the new box???

Here is pic existing box...

[gjat]

Tom,
You can't upgrade the amperage of the Main larger than the size of the feeder conductors. (Feeder - from the meter to the line side of your main circuit breaker)

[stewchi]

I had mine done 2 years ago, I had planned on doing it myself and did a lot of home work, then chickened out when it came time to cut the live power lines where they attach to the house.

As Greg pointed out, wires feeding the house have to be sized for the size you want (200 Amps?)
Here is what I had to do for mine:
A trip to the power company with a form filled out describing what I wanted to do. This results in an inspector being sent out to look at the pole, to make sure the system including the wires to my house can handle the increased load. If an upgrade is needed they will estimate it and I will be responsible to pay for it.
Fortunately they said it was fine and provided my a drawing and list of materials I would need to upgrade my service. This was only the outside portion, I found out that I am responsible for everything up to the roof just before it goes into conduit then down to the meter. The list of materials described the conduit, attachments, connectors, meter housing, conductor size, and grounding requirements.
This is in addition to the new panel and breakers that are needed.
Because I planned to do it myself I went and priced all of the materials, (not all of which I could find a Lowes, HD or Menard, had to go to a local electrical supply place). I also learned all of the details of what needed to be done so I had a general idea of how long it would take.
But as I said I chickened out when it came time to stand on my metal ladder and cut the live service of 1” thick aluminum wire.
So I called everybody (9) in the phone book near my area 3 called me back and came out to give an estimate. The first was $3000, the second was $1400 the third was $1850. I was able to negotiate a little, I had estimated all of the materials to be around $900 so the rest was labor, I ended up paying $1800 to the third bidder (that included a tip because they were excellent). I was responsible for getting the permit but made it clear in writing that any of there work that did not pass inspection they would redo, this actually was the case, the inspector did not like the way the ground was attached in the meter housing, and they had to come out and fix it.
To me it was money well spent, my old panel was a 60’s vintage pushmatic that would buzz and hum sometimes. I felt much better about the house and it made rewiring most of the house much much easier.

[BobSch]

We upped out 100 amp service to 200 several years ago when we were adding a porch to the house and had to move the incoming service anyway. We decided to bury the power and cable TV feed so we wouldn't have any overhead wire in the yard at all. We left the existing 100 amp panel and made it a sub off the new 200 amp box. Was much easier than moving all the existing romex to the new panel.

[gjat]

stewchi,
HOLY MOLEY! I work for an electrical construction company and we build services all the time. Even WE don't cut the feed to the meter because of safety. NEVER attempt that. The way it's done is you build your new service complete with the riser or feed coming out of the meter socket that goes to the power company. Check with your local power company for their requirements. THE POWER COMPANY will come and cut the feed and re-power the new meter. NEVER EVER EVER EVER CUT A LIVE WIRE. Even a trained professional won't do so unless absolutely neccessary and will then have hot gloves and properly insulated tools and other equipment to do so safely. 120 volts can kill you. The feed from the power company is 120 volts and will supply 100's of amps of current before kicking off. You could kill yourself and someone who comes to help you.

quote:But as I said I chickened out when it came time to stand on my metal ladder and cut the live service of 1” thick aluminum wire.

You would have killed yourself. Cutting the feed is the power company's job.
A few months ago, an employee in a sister division was killed working on a outdoor light fixture that was wired 120/240v incorrectly. The spark created when cutting the still hot leg on another circuit startled him and he fell 8 feet and the concussion killed him. I've worked around industrial electricity for 20+ years. There are old linemen and bold linemen, but there are NEVER old AND bold linemen.

[scorrpio]

It appears that your box sits atop a concrete ledge. A larger box will extend up higher than this one. Except for a couple wires coming in from sides, nearly all wires are coming in from top - so you should have no problems with wires being short with a larger box.

As to how much it'll cost - really a question of how lucky you are. Components involved are:
1. feed from main line to the house.
2. riser wire connecting feed to your meter.
3. meter.
4. wire from meter to panel.

I understand that you want to replace the panel with a larger one in any case, thus I din't count it.

Each of these components is rated for a certain current max, and might have to be upgraded in order to handle 200amps. Best case, only the panel will need to be replaced. Worst case, you'll need everything from the main line to the main panel.

[stewchi]

Greg:
Because of placement there was not option to build in parallel, I talked to the power company and for $75 a trip they would cut the line and re-hook it up. But I didn’t think I could get the job done between 7:00 am – 3:00pm by myself and going the night without power in 40 degree weather was not an option and it not the kinda thing you want to rush.

The electricians that did the work CUT THE LIVE FEED: I know because I wanted to see him do it. While he was up on the ladder (Fiberglass) I asked him what kind of PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) he was wearing. To my shock and awe it was just a regular pair of leather gloves. He said his 100kv gloves were to cumbersome for the this job. He said “as long as the leather gloves don’t get wet your fine and with the boots and fiberglass ladder you don’t even need the gloves” he was telling me this while stripping the insulation of with an knife to splice an extension cord to the service in order to provide power to a light and drill in the basement. He made it look really easy, snip, snip a little tape, done!
It sounds scary but these guys did very nice work, apparently they don’t normally do residential and there references were most of the Meijer’s , Lowes and other stores in the area.
Still I didn’t have the nuts to do it. Even after I looked into buying all of the necessary (apparently not) PPE to safely insulate myself.

Oh yeah fall protection is another big item, I was a little bothered (and glad the guys were insured and bonded) that he was up a ladder about 20ft with no fall protection on. OSHA requires 6ft and above and were I work the policy is any height over 4ft requires fall protection. Annoying but safe.

So please everybody when your taking down you holiday lights please think about fall protection. Menards sells a kit for $100 which is probably less than your HMO/PPO co-pay for that x-ray, CAT scan and MRI.

[gjat]

stewchi,
I assure you the guy did not use industry or OSHA safety standards, even standing on a fiberglass ladder. I personally have seen a person's feet 'blow out' when standing on a ladder and getting into live electricity (granted it was higher than 120v). I've worked on live electricity, but would not recommend someone who is unpracticed too and I NEVER do so during work. I've seen people with 'cooked' limbs, cooked fingers, burn scars from flashes. And I garauntee the power company guys would NEVER cut the live line without hot gloves, no matter HOW clumsy it may be. Leathers are not sufficient since wire strands often pierce and embed in gloves and they get dirty. If he normally uses his leathers without a lining, his sweat impregnates the leather, making it conductive. Nor would I have allowed that guy to do what he did with a ladder. I would have thrown him off my property. Period. God made us smart enough to create electricity, rubber gloves, and bucket trucks.

[Whaler]

In 1999 we upgraded to 200 amps. I hired an electrical contractor, the total cost was $2,740.00. Other than a new box and the outside service entrance it included 3 25 amp circuits installed in the shop, wires had to be run, and a 25 amp GFI outlet on the front of the house.
The power company did the re wire from the pole to the service inlet at no charge.

[Tom.Trout]

Thats about similar scope to what I want, maybe a little more. I would be very happy with $3000.

quote:Originally posted by Whaler

In 1999 we upgraded to 200 amps. I hired an electrical contractor, the total cost was $2,740.00. Other than a new box and the outside service entrance it included 3 25 amp circuits installed in the shop, wires had to be run, and a 25 amp GFI outlet on the front of the house.
The power company did the re wire from the pole to the service inlet at no charge.

[cwsmith]

Stewchi,

I just picked up on this post and winced when you said your contractor cut those wires while they were still live. No disrespect to you, but the guy was an idiot! All it would have taken was a small pin hole or the slightest bit of conductivity and he would have been fried. I guess he makes an alternate case for the saying that "there are no stupid electrician, they all die while they are apprentices".

I have a similar problem, having just bought a house with 100 amp service and wish to upgrade to 200 amp. I had one electrician come over three times to scope out the job and check on things he needed... he has yet to return my calls or even answer his e-mail, so I guess he decided it wasn't worth his time. He gave me an original "ballpark" price of around $2,000. So anything between 2 and 3 grand is probably about right. I've also had two electricians who said all they have to do is swap out the main breaker and then give me a "break-out box" for the additional circuits. But considering the I still have the old three-wire system coming in from the pole, I don't think they know what they're talking about and I'm still pursuing someone who seems a bit more creditable. I hope you have better luck getting someone than I am having.

I appreciated the advice your received about contacting the electric company, I think I'll pursue that and then find an electrician who will do the work.

CWS

[gjat]

CW,The electricians may very well be correct. You can undersize the breaker to the feed from the power compnay. In fact, this is almost always the case in residential. The Power Company doesn't always know the exact amp of your service and they will have a standard size wire and standard amp rated meter can (ie: 200amp). When it gets to your panel, it could be rated for a higher amp and the bus bar (the solid bars that transfer the current to your branch breakers) could be rated larger than your Main. This is because the manuf. standardizes prodction. The 'break out' is a sub-panel that allows additional circuits. For example, they make 200a 6 circuit and 200a 16 circuit panels. The bus bar would be the same thickness, just shorter. Add a breaker for a 'break-out' panel (no MCB, just lugs) and you can add circuits to your 6 circuit panel.

[bhornberger]

quote:Originally posted by Tom.Trout

I've been considering a 200 amp service upgrade.

How much do you think it would cost?

How do they handle wires that are to short for the new box???

When I moved into my new "old" house I had 60 amp service. THis was fine until I added the house's first Air Cond. systems. I upgraded to 200amp as well. For about $2000 I had a new panel installed, and a new meter outside with the ability to add a few breakers.

I had new feeders ran from the meter to the box.

As for the question on the short wires, they made extensions and wirenut them in the panel. I think I saw one like that in your existing box. No it's not pretty...

brent

[stewchi]

CW: if you have an overhead service check to see what size your header conduit is (the pipe coming down the wall that goes into the meter house. It must be at least 2” for a 200A service. If the pipe is smaller than 2” you will have to upgrade the pipe and the wires inside.

I had a similar problem finding someone that could be bothered with my “little job”, that’s why I called everybody in the phone book, after a week I got 3 call backs.

Granted cutting the live service to you and me sounds crazy, unless my physics is wrong it would take much more than a pinhole, if my memory serves me he did the hook up with out gloves, touching the live conductors. I think he would only have been fried if he grabbed more than one conductor at a time of if he some how was in physical contact with a path to ground. Would I bet my life that I was not in contact with such a path? NO WAY, that’s why I called these guys. However I don’t do this work for a living. Beside there is really no alternative (besides wearing better PPE). The line had to be cut live, there is no switch that turns off the power to just my house. When I asked how the power gets turned off the power company said you have to cut the line, usually the electrician will do it, or they could do it for a fee (and when their available). Some one mentioned bucket truck, however I am not sure you could have gotten a bucket up over the porch roof between the giant oak to were the service entrance is.

But if someone knows a better way to do this, or knows how they do this sort of thing for underground service I am interested, I watched every step these guys did and asked tons of questions, and learned a lot from them. I figured the education helped offset the cost.

[gjat]

stew,
It only takes a pinhole. I've seen it. Live conductors aren't cut as a normal operation. It should be cut off at the transformer or at a fused cut off. It is there. The Power Company protects themselves as well. Yes, you can work on live wires, including high voltage transmission (excess of 138,000 volts) as long as you are completely insulated from anything else and are at the same 'potential' as the conductor. That's why powerlines aren't bird-zappers. But 1 little thing, such as sweat, oil film, dirt, even a pinhole, can change that and you become a concuctive path to a different potential. I've seen electricity travel down a cloth measuring tape because the voltage was high enough and their was enough moisture and dirt on the tape to make it conductive. You can walk on live coals too. But it isn't advisable and why do it if it isn't neccessary. People who never walk on coals never burn their toes on coals. People who never cut live wires never get zapped cutting live wires.

We haven't even discussed cutting live wires on something that has a load. Did you know that if your AC, Stove, and refrig was running when you cut the line, there would be a big-ass flash as the electricity arcs accross the air? That big-ass flash will burn ya.