staining "red" oak

[xcross]

Hi,
I've built a cabinet out of the red oak that's sold at my Home Depot. I'm ready to finish now and I'm trying to match an oak book case I bought years ago and finished myself. I'm almost certain I used Minwax red oak to stain the the book case and it does look as red as the tiny sample picture on the label. However, the wood I've built the new cabinet from doesn't show the red tint at all in a side by side comparison. It looks distinctly brown. I've tried all the minwax reds: oak, chestnut, mahogany, and they all look identical brown on the samples.

The only thing I can think of is perhaps the book case was white oak and shows the red, where as the "red" oak of my cabinet has a yellow tint that turns the red stain brown.

Does anyone have any advice? I'd really like to achieve that minwax red oak color but my actual red oak has me stymied.

Thanks
Chris

[Gershwin]

When I have to color match something, I use dyes. Grab yourself some powdered dyes of various colors (e.g., Walnut, Mahogany, Brown, Amber, etc.). The nice thing is, a small bottle of powder will last you years if you're not doing production work because of the tiny amount you use for any one job. Mix with alcohol--my preference--or water and you can apply a the same shade or a variety of shades over and over again until you sneak up on the right color and darkness.

I use and have only used TransTint dye because my local Woodcraft carries it, but there are one or two others that you can order online.

I just checked Amazon and they've got 'em too.

Amazon link to TransTint

Amazon link to "wood dye"

[pelligrini]

Might play with some sample strips of your new material and some different stain mixes. Minwax Sedona Red has a brighter red hue, sometimes I'll mix that with Golden Oak or Early American to match a piece. Be sure to write down your proportions. I like writing it on the sample later for future reference. You might pick up several small cans and experiment. On small stuff I'll sometimes apply different stains over each other.

The little sample photos on the cans aren't the best things to go by. Shades will vary a lot depending on the species and the wood itself.

You might try taking a part of your old bookcase to Sherwin Williams. I believe they can mix up a batch to match.

[cabinetman]

You can do experimenting with oil base stains, water base stains, and dyes both water base and alcohol base. You could come up with a close color match. There are other factors to a wood taking on a color.

First in matching colors, the species could even be the same, but take color differently. The degree of sanding would affect how the wood takes stain. Wood sanded with 100x will likely look darker than the same wood sanded with 220x.

The wood will also look differently once a topcoat is applied over the stain. My suggestion is when making samples, mark the back with the stain or stains used and the ratio to volume. Take each sample to its final finish...that is, apply the topcoat. Even then, there could be a difference in the same stains, with the same sanding regimen, but one with an oil base topcoat will look different than one done in lacquer, or waterbase polyurethane.

.

[xcross]

Thanks for all the advice. I ordered TransTint Mohogany Red to start experimenting.

Cabinetman, I have been following your advice taking the test samples to the top coat. One thing that worries me is the raised panel doors. The top and bottom profile on the raised panel of course exposes exposes the end grain and it stains really dark, almost black. Is there any technique for dealing with that?

[cabinetman]

Cabinetman, I have been following your advice taking the test samples to the top coat. One thing that worries me is the raised panel doors. The top and bottom profile on the raised panel of course exposes exposes the end grain and it stains really dark, almost black. Is there any technique for dealing with that?

If the door is already together, center the panel if you can, and pin the panel to the rails only at the top and bottom center, from the rear (if it's vertical grain). For any panels that are horizontal grain, pin through the stiles at the rear in the center to the panel. Then stain and finish the panel ends and sides as cleanly as you can up to the rails and stiles.

.

[crybdr]

From the various scrap pieces of 'red' and 'white' oak that I have kicking around my shop, I can say that it is not easy to determine the difference between the two - based solely on color. Depending upon where the tree came from, where the board was cut from the trunk, and time....'white' can look like 'red' & 'red' can look like 'white' - hard to tell the difference. One difference between the two is that 'white' has a closed cell structure that makes if better for outdoor applications - while the 'red' variety has an open cell structure.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas..._from_Red.html

Take the species question out or your equation - your 'red' oak on your first project may have been 'redder' than you current material - or cut from a different part of the tree.

Luckily, your color match will be achieved using the staining strategies described by the other members above - on samples of the wood you intend to stain.

Best of luck....

crybdr

[mpc]

For the end grain sections there are two tricks that help:
1: sand just the end grain portions with sandpaper 2 grit numbers higher than what you used for the other grain. I.e. if you sanded to 100 grit for the face grain, use 150 and then 220 on the edge grain. The smoother the surface, the less the stain tends to penetrate so it won't be so dark.

2: use a "sanding sealer" prior to stain application. This basically puts a thin layer over the entire project, plugging pores and end grain sections so the whole thing takes the stain coat more evenly. Sanding sealer can color the project too; practice on scraps.

Or do both. And as was noted in one of the earlier replies, how you sand the project affects the final color/darkness of the stain. If the final sanding was with a fairly coarse paper, more stain will penetrate the wood leading to a darker finish typically. The variation can be considerable.

mpc

[phi1l]

One other thing you may want to try is to apply coats of dilute amber shellac. THe shellac will add a reddish tint by using multiple dilute coats you can control the level of redness.

[xcross]

Wow, lots to consider. I've already used up the practice piece I made to learn the router set up for the panel profile so I need to cut a few more end grain profiles to test. I sanded everything down to 220x.

Regarding the stain, I've read the solvent choices are water, alcohol, and lacquer thinner? Water doesn't sound like the right choice to me as that would raise the grain and ruin the sanding job wouldn't it?

What about adding tint to the polyurethane top coat?

Finally, is there such a thing as a "flat" polyurethane? I've modeled my cabinet after the store bought entertainment center in my living room and the finish is definitely flat, not shiny at all. Using the minwax satin poly, its still far shinier than I want...

[Gershwin]

Regarding the stain, I've read the solvent choices are water, alcohol, and lacquer thinner? Water doesn't sound like the right choice to me as that would raise the grain and ruin the sanding job wouldn't it?

You should only dilute stain using something compatible with the original formula used with the stain. The best way is to check the MSDS sheet for the stain in question.

I think that modern oil-based stains can be thinned with mineral spirits (MS), tolulene, xylene, TRPS, turpentine and naptha. Again, check the label--often worthless--and MSDS first to see what was used at the factory. I have used TRPS, turpentine and naptha with oil-based stains, varnish and oil-based polys without issue. I really like the way turpentine affects poly and varnish flow when I brush.

I don't work with water-based stains. I think they use glycol bases (i.e., ethylene and propylene glycol). Check the label and MSDS with these too. If the label doesn't say, then you can try thinning a little sample with water--best to use distilled if you have it on-hand in case your tap water has iron, salts from a conditioner and other minerals that may cause problems. I have never used them, but I know the big box stores carry water-based thinner. I'm guessing this stuff is glycol-based or something compatible.

As the above users mentioned, test first. Also be aware of how different thinners affect the flow as you brush or spray.

Finally, is there such a thing as a "flat" polyurethane? I've modeled my cabinet after the store bought entertainment center in my living room and the finish is definitely flat, not shiny at all. Using the minwax satin poly, its still far shinier than I want...

...there most certainly is. I was surprised at how flat a can of Behr "Crystal Clear Satin" was when I first used it. I'm surprised they call it satin because, to me, satin connotes something just below a semi-gloss.

[cabinetman]

Finally, is there such a thing as a "flat" polyurethane? I've modeled my cabinet after the store bought entertainment center in my living room and the finish is definitely flat, not shiny at all. Using the minwax satin poly, its still far shinier than I want...

Once dry, you could try using a very smooth microfiber pad to lightly rub the finish...like 3M ScotchBrite (white).

.

[jrnewhall]

I've been making inset doors for my oak kitchen cabinets and it took me a week to figure how to match the color. I started with the Minwax red-oak and golden oak on red oak I bought rough and milled myself. None of it looked right. I settled on 2 coats of amber shellac thinned with alcohol by about 1/3 (sand lightly after the 1st coat) then coated with a clear gel urethane (General Finishes). This gave me the best match and was easy. I wiped everything on with clean rags prior to final assembly.

~John