Question for cabinet makers

[jussi]

My brother asked me to build him a set of kitchen cabinets for a house he just bought. I've never really built anything but a few shop cabinets that I didn't really care how they looked as long as they functioned correctly. So before I started I thought I'd ask a couple of questions.

1. Can I use the basic build configuration when it comes to the carcass. ie 3/4" sides and back, solid bottom, and 2 stretcher strips for the top?

2. Next question is purely aesthetic but wanted to know how things are normally done. Thinking about using walnut ply for cabinet carcasses that can be seen and cheaper birch for the ones in the middle that can't be seen. For the cabinets on the outside (with walnut ply) should I build the whole thing out of walnut or just use a sheet on the side that will be seen. If the latter, is it ok that most of the inside is birch and one side is walnut. If I'm over thinking this and there is a much simpler (and obvious) answer please let me know.

[cabinetman]

My brother asked me to build him a set of kitchen cabinets for a house he just bought. I've never really built anything but a few shop cabinets that I didn't really care how they looked as long as they functioned correctly. So before I started I thought I'd ask a couple of questions.

1. Can I use the basic build configuration when it comes to the carcass. ie 3/4" sides and back, solid bottom, and 2 stretcher strips for the top?

This would apply for base cabinets. Allow for rabbeting the sides and bottom for a ¼" back.

2. Next question is purely aesthetic but wanted to know how things are normally done. Thinking about using walnut ply for cabinet carcasses that can be seen and cheaper birch for the ones in the middle that can't be seen. For the cabinets on the outside (with walnut ply) should I build the whole thing out of walnut or just use a sheet on the side that will be seen. If the latter, is it ok that most of the inside is birch and one side is walnut. If I'm over thinking this and there is a much simpler (and obvious) answer please let me know.

A much simpler (and less expensive) way is to use the Birch or Maple for all carcasses, and for the finished outside ends or visible surfaces, use ¼" Walnut plywood as an add-on. That way all the insides will look alike.


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[jussi]

Thanks c'man. I assume with 1/4" back I'll have to put 1/2 to 3/4 h nailing strips. Is it easier to do that just use 1/2" or 3/4" back? I know using 1/4" will be cheaper but is more professional and easier to install (since I'll probably be doing that too).

Any good recommendations on cabinet sites that shows different cabinet configurations, options, etc. I plan on checking out the BM stores as well.

[Bill in Buena Park]

Jussi,
You didn't say whether you were building wall or base cabinets, but from your description of using "stretcher strips" on the top, sounds like base cabinets. Another question would be if you plan to use face frames or not. Walnut ply seems like a very dark choice for the kitchen - but that's a taste thing.

I've constructed kitchen cabinets (wall and base) using 3/4 sheet (ply, mdf) for sides, bottom, top (and stretchers on base), and nail plates; I don't see this used for the back often, which is usually constructed with upper and lower nail plates, and a thinner panel-type stock as the backer. Another consideration for base cabinets is a toe-kick area.

If you're building modular base carcases that will abut on the sides when installed (hiding the sides), no reason to use walnut ply on what will be hidden (unless both sides are walnut, and you want walnut seen on the insides) - but plan carefully. On wall cabinets, where you might have carcases of differing lengths abutting, those that hang lower and expose lower portions of the sides will need to have walnut ply sides.

If you don't use face frames, I assume you plan to edgeband?

[jussi]

Thanks for the tips Bill. Especially about the bottoms of the wall cabinet showing. I didn't think about that. Perhaps I'll plan it out on skechup first before I screw up tons of expensive ply.

I'll be making both wall and base and using face frames. I'll be using kick plates as well. My brother and his wife like the look of the dark cabinets and specifically asked for a darker look.

Since you've built quite a few cabinets can you tell me if there specialty type cabinets/hardware that you've found work well and some that don't. Like spice drawer, large one for pots and pans, lazy susans, etc.

Also what is the typical height for base cabinets and how low should the wall ones go?

[Black wallnut]

You could also order plywood with walnut one side and birch on the other.

[cabinetman]

I'll be making both wall and base and using face frames. I'll be using kick plates as well. My brother and his wife like the look of the dark cabinets and specifically asked for a darker look.

Since you've built quite a few cabinets can you tell me if there specialty type cabinets/hardware that you've found work well and some that don't. Like spice drawer, large one for pots and pans, lazy susans, etc.

Here are a few tips. The top of the base cabinet uses some reinforcing which doubles as an assembly and installation feature. A front rail behind the FF laid flat that gets fastened at both ends in a rabbet will stiffen the top rail of the FF, and create a gusset effect in the two top front corners helping to reduce racking. If marble or granite is used for a countertop, I recommend a full ¾" plywood top as a structural element to support the top material.

A back rail made up as an "L" (edges forward and down) gets installed at the top rear of both ends. The backside of this rail will line up with a rabbet in the ends and the floor to accept the back of the cabinet. This part of the "L" can be used to install the cabinet to the wall. The back can be ¼". The underside of the front and rear pieces are the attachment points for the interior dividers for the inside sides for the drawers. The location of those dividers should clear the bowl of the sink.

The flat front support and the flat rear support (of the "L") can be used to attach the countertop.

This is basically a quickie description of the shell. A suggestion at the stage you're in to do a continued layout before any further cutouts or assembly and plan out the sizes while keeping in mind how they will be installed. On your next project, draw out in full size the entire cabinet on a sheet of anything like 1/4" ply or 1/2" MDF (which is pretty cheap). Doing a front view (elevation) of the parts will show all the joinery and the exact sizes of the joints and pieces. When the cabinet finally gets assembled, it should fit on your drawing perfectly. If your dimensions are correct, you took all the data and created a layout sheet which you can draw out how the parts get cut from sheet stock, and a cut list which you should number and letter each piece as it gets cut.

This way you will have all your parts cut and marked which matches your sheets. You won't misplace parts thinking they are scraps. It sounds like a fire drill, but it will make your project go smoother and faster making you more productive. Once you get in the habit for doing it this way, the next time is much easier, and becomes like a puzzle that just flows together.

I also recommend making a loose toe kick. I use an exterior grade ply like A/C Fir, or marine grade, for kitchens and vanities to be resistant to water problems, including mopping. The faces of the TK can be an add on ¼" ply used in the species of the cabinet exterior. They can be easily added or changed. The TK can be made like a ladder. Doing this allows the cabinet boxes to be cut out of a sheet providing 6 ends/dividers, instead of 4. So, your yield will be better.

Having a loose toe kick makes installing easier. The TK is leveled, and the cabinets just sit on it. It also give two places to shim the boxes...between the floor and the cabinet, and between the TK and the cabinet.

Also what is the typical height for base cabinets and how low should the wall ones go?

Architectural standards for cabinet dimensions:

A toe kick is 4" high, and sits 3" from the front of the cabinet.
Height to the top of the countertop is 36" from the floor.
Base cabinets are 24" deep...front to back.
Countertops are 25" deep...front to back.
Upper cabinets are 12" deep...front to back, and a standard box is 30" high.
Spacing between countertop and upper cabinets is 18".

These are just general guidelines. Items like spice drawers, large one for pots and pans, and lazy susans, if planned well from the start can be shop made and create a real convenience. You might even like to have a lid pull out like this, or pull outs behind doors. Also consider a pull out trash drawer.

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[conwaygolfer]

You could also make a pan lid holder like I did for my wife. And the wall cabinets could be 42" tall and hang near the ceiling with small crown moulding around the top like I did.

Conwaygolfer

[JimD]

I think the trickiest thing is figuring out what goes where. I would strongly suggest that you push the users of the kitchen, your brother and his wife, to tell you where they want everything. You should also get them to look through some specialty hardware catalogs for things they might want. Pictures of features they like would be especially useful. I plan things on paper, instead of wood as suggested by C-man. I'm not saying my way is better, just that I do it that way. I draw things out in pretty small scale including a layout for the cuts on the sheets of plywood. Larger drawings would probably be better your first time. I've tried this in the computer but at my skill level it works better for me to dig out an old parallel line board and sketch things up. You can solve a lot for almost no money at the sketch up stage.

I built one new kitchen for our Pittsburgh house. So I have some experience but not anything like C'mans. I also built a new island for my current house and some bathroom cabinets. The Pittsburgh cabinets were just 3/4 plywood boxes. Plywood came from the home center so it was peeled off the log and didn't look much like boards. That was OK with us but I would buy the plywood from a specialty hardwood dealer, the price isn't much different, and get better plywood which would look more like boards if I do it again. That is what I did for the island.

Instead of just using 1/4 plywood, I would make a flat panel door, essentially, for the end of the cabinets where it would show. It doesn't take much more material and looks better. I would get a pocket hole jig and use it for the face frames. You can even use to make doors if you want but little stub tenons are simple and you have to cut the groove for the plywood anyway. You can even put the cabinets together with pocket screws if you plan where they go so they won't show. They hold very well and are very easy to do. This would be an especially good idea if you don't have lots of clamps.

I would definitely make the toe kick sepearate as suggested by C'man. It is better use of material and makes for better cabinets. You can use plywood but you can also use scraps from other projects where it won't show.

Norm put 3/4 backs on his cabinets when he did the shows but that would make them awfully heavy, takes some interior space away, and would increase the cost. I wouldn't but you could.

My basic construction method for plywood cabinets is to put shallow, like 1/8 inch deep, dados in the sides for the top and bottom. There they won't show, you can put screws in from the outside. In the Pittsburgh cabinets, I put really deep dados in the sides, like 5/8 inch and then screwed the top and bottom on with the screws coming in from the top and bottom. I plugged the screw holes with oak (the material of the cabinets) and because they were on the top and bottom we thought they looked good.

My island is contructed like a dresser and does not use drawer slides. The drawers just slide on wooden separators. They do not move as easily as ball bearing slides but I don't mind. I gained significant space.

If you want to use slides, the choices have major cost implications so the clients need to be involved. I do not like doors on base cabinets, I like all drawers. I think it is much easier to get to stuff. So that means even more drawer slides if you go that way.

After using home made jigs and a plunge router to make shelf holes for years, I tried the little drill jig out of clear plastic that Rocklers sells. The holes are not quite as clean as with a router and spiral bit but it is a whole lot easier to use and the holes are better spaced.

If you use walnut you may want to put exterior poly with a UV blocker in it for the finish. Walnut bleaches when exposed to sunlight. If it will never get direct sunlight it will process very slowly but I have some nesting tables in my living room and it is surpriseing the color difference when you slide them out. They get no direct sunlight.

I think that's enough for now.

Jim

[vaking]

C-man provided standard dimensions, I want to emphasize how they play out. Top of countertop is at 36" from the floor and typical countertop material is 1.5" thick. Base cabinet therefore ends at 34.5" from the floor before countertop is installed. Toe kick is 4" high, so sides of a cabinet need to be 30.5" inches if you use lose toe kick. Sheet of ply is typically 96" long, so you can make 3 pieces 30.5" long out of one of that dimension. If you don't make lose TK - 34.5" long sides will leave you with lots of leftovers.
Base cabinet is 24" deep. With the 3/4" face frame you will need 23-1/4" deep sides - again 2 good sides out of 48" sheet of ply.
The suggestion to use marine grade ply for toe kick is new to me but it makes perfect sense - floor in the kitchen does get wet a lot.
Typical upper cabinets begin at 18" above countertop - that means 54" from the floor. Upper cabinets are normally either 30" tall or 36" or 42". When you are making your own cabinets you can make some adjustments for specific items you have.

The most convinient storage in the kitchen are 2 top drawers of a base cabinet and the bottom shelf of an upper cabinet. Plan kitchen layout with this in mind - that is where the most used items should go.

[ecenur]

I recently purchased some Accuride drawer slides on-line which did not come with screws. I know that the right screw must be used to mount these slides to avoid binding in the slide. Does anyone know what I can do in a situation like this?

[Bruce Cohen]

Jussi,

I'm not to sure I'd listen to what Cab has to say, after all, all he does is post you tube stuff.

Merry Christmas, ya old goat

Bruce (even an older goat), but Ibet I have more scars than you!!!