Staining Issues

[steve-norrell]

I have been using Minwax stains under the impression that they are just plain, ordinary "oil-based" stains. Admittedly, I did not pay very close attention to the label because that is what I have usually used.

But I noticed on my current project that the wood did not seem to absorb the stain very well on the second or third application, even when the stain was left on the wood for up to thirty minutes. Then I noticed that the cans are labeled "Wood Finish: Penetrates, Stains and Seals".

Its the "Seals" that has me worried. Does it seal enough so that additional applications of stains won't darken the wood very much?

Has anyone else noticed this or had a problem with it? Can you recommend a good 'oil-based' stain that will take second and third applications?

As to 'fixing' the current project, I thought of using Minwax tinted urethane, diluting it and using as a wipe-on. Comments, please!

Regards, Steve

[cabinetman]

Minwax oil base stains are not a final finish. They don't seal like a sealer or film finish would seal. Depending on the species of your sample, initial sanding smoother than 180x could inhibit taking stain.
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[steve-norrell]

Minwax oil base stains are not a final finish. They don't seal like a sealer or film finish would seal. Depending on the species of your sample, initial sanding smoother than 180x could inhibit taking stain.
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Thanks, C'man. I should have mentioned that the wood is red oak and sanded down to a 180 grit finish. I also wiped the surfaces with mineral spirits before applying the first coat of stain. First coat went on fine; second and third did not seem to darken very much more.

I am trying to match a color so that the piece will go with a daughter's existing dark oak furniture. I am using the stain (Early American) that my daughter said matched.

I know that this Minwax product is not a final finish and had expected to apply either Cell Seal followed by several coats of a dark oak pigmented wax (Buffalo Wax) or the wax alone. I have and good luck with that wax before and I know it will darken the surface a little.

Regards, Steve

[natausch]

It is very difficult to darken a stain using oil based because the pigments are large enough that they're blocking the next layer from penetraing deep into the wood, especially noticable on say Maple, but also noticable on all woods.

However, by switching to a darker oil based stain you can usually push the color further. I'd grab some scrap and check what special walnut or dark walnut look like over a piece that has already had early american on it. Depending if the mineral spirits had fully dried the oil stain may not have reached a full color saturation.

Another option is to knock back the stain with some 120 grit, restain, go back to 180 then put the last coat of oil based stain on, after that top coat and lightly sand between coats.

For other solutions, tinted poly or even a tinted shellac would also work well. Analine dyes are very forgiving to use and let you sneak up on a color by repeated wiping or spraying.

But, the biggest issue is with a water based dye you'll raise the grain and potentially move some of the oil based stain underneath, a low lb cut shellac can help with this, but you'll have more success using another oil based stain on top of to darken and penetrate the wood. Dyes that lay on top of the wood work great for Maple and other blotching wood, but a surface scratch will be much more obvious.

[cabinetman]

I am trying to match a color so that the piece will go with a daughter's existing dark oak furniture. I am using the stain (Early American) that my daughter said matched.

I know that this Minwax product is not a final finish and had expected to apply either Cell Seal followed by several coats of a dark oak pigmented wax (Buffalo Wax) or the wax alone. I have and good luck with that wax before and I know it will darken the surface a little.

Regards, Steve

The Early American doesn't have much pigment. It's fairly watery. If the mineral spirits was completely dry, and your first application of stain was dry, the second coat should darken somewhat, but not much. As it was mentioned, you can mix darker oil base stains to get a deeper color. Alcohol (methanol) based aniline dyes carry more color to Red Oak than a pigmented stain will. It's also called NGR (non-grain raising).

Red Oak is very easy to stain and finish. I would not use any type of wax or shellac in a finish schedule. By the time you get to your first topcoat of a film finish, you can add a tint to the finish to tone it to taste. Try all your experimenting with samples to see what looks best.

My first choice would be a waterbased polyurethane. It finishes Red Oak very well and is as durable as any other finish you could use. Other than that, CAB lacquer (water white) would be my second choice. And again, I would not use any type of wax.
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[Black wallnut]

Minwax oil base stains are not a final finish. snip.

That all depends on what look you are trying to get and the application.

I agree that you may need to skuff the piece and try again. You may have burnished the surface with the 180 grit. I believe that they call it a sealer because it can dry as a film, so it somewhat will seal pores at least. With the same stain you are using I've not had problems getting red oak dark enough with just the first coat.

[Mr__Bill]

Before you do anything else: Get a can of Minwax walnut and don't shake it up or stir it. Pour the dark liquid off and try it over the Early American. It may darken it enough without adding too much black to the pores.

I have never liked Early American by it's self but with the liquid from Walnut it's not bad as a dark brown stain with lighter brown gobs of pigment that add some interesting tones to the finished product.

I have also found it's hard to do a second coat of stain after the first has dried too much. Normally I will keep it wet until it's the color I want and then lightly wipe it and after an hour or so start wiping hard to even the colors and to add some lighter areas.

As C-man said, water borne poly works well, just make sure the oil stain is thoroughly dry and then wait another day. Be real careful with the first sanding of the seal coat, it's easy to cut through into the stain and it's really hard to repair then.

If the areas are large enough the water borne poly goes on nice with a small roller. The kind that are about and inch in diameter and 4 inches long, with a soft short nap. Roll it on and then tip it off with a brush.

Good luck,

Bill

[steve-norrell]

Thanks for all the advice. I actually ended up using suggestions either directly from, or close to, all received.

First, the Early American stain is the one mentioned by the daughter. I agree that it is too light and, as noted in an earlier post, did not darken the wood enough to match her existing furniture. (She lives in Oregon and I had to send a chunk of stained oak down to her.)

Here is what I did: I had some very dark, almost black, stain (Jacobian) that I mixed with the Early American (2 parts Jacobian, 4 parts Early American). I applied two coats of stain across the grain, allowing at least 3/4 hour for each coat to penetrate and begin to set up in the grain, allowing four hours between the two stainings. The excess stain was removed with relatively light wiping. It came out noticeably darker and closer to her other furniture.

I plan to let it continue to set up for at least 48 hours before doing anything else. I am thinking of two different finishes:

1. Several coats Libron Black Bison Wax, in dark oak. I have used it in the past with very good results. The piece I am building is a framed wall mirror so it won't get very much wear.

2. Alternately, I am thinking about applying a thin layer of Seal Coat before several coats of wax. I like the way the Seal Coat seems to enhance the depth of the grain and I think it will seal in the stain so the buffing of the wax won't affect it.

Again, thanks for all the help. I'll eventually get this done and will post pictures as I am well aware of the fact that "It really didn't happen if there are no pictures".

Regards, Steve

[Jack Bench]

I think what they mean by an oil base stain "sealing" the surface refers to the oil itself. I don't know exactly what is in Minwax, but the oil in many stains is linseed oil or some other oil that will harden.