How do make a very strong miter?

[ironhat]

I was looking at Rockler's offering to advertise your skills with CustomMadeGalleries. I saw this artisan who makes live-edge benches with continuous grain down the mitered legs. What is the strongest way to build a miter that will support a couple of people? I doubt that it is bisquits but how about 3-4 90* miter-dowels?

[scmhogg]

Chiz,

I think a hidden spline might be the strongest. It's hard to believe that bench could survive sideways movement, under load.

Steve

[cabinetman]

What is the strongest way to build a miter that will support a couple of people? I doubt that it is bisquits but how about 3-4 90* miter-dowels?

You are right IMO, not biscuits. I would use a splined miter, or a lock miter router bit.
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[cgallery]

Wow, he does great work. Love the lamps, too. Very creative guy.

I E-Mailed him asking how he reinforces the miter.

I'm kinda hoping he doesn't come back w/ something like "M&T" because I'd probably just give up woodworking altogether.

[drumpriest]

Probably a hidden spline in the miter. I like a splined miter joint for this though, as I think it'd be attractive. You could also easily do this with the domino joiner, think of a biscuit cutter that cuts mortises rather than kerfs. With a row of loose tenons it's be strong enough, and really easy to cut with precision, at the expense of an 800$ tool. Given how much he prolly gets for a bench, it's a really reasonable expenditure.

[crokett]

I'd also do a splined miter or lock miter. My woodworking brother showed me something similar to that bench once. One end was a lock miter other end was a splined miter. He put it on the floor and stood on it. It held.

[cabinetman]

Some joinery methods can actually create a weak joint. Consider a long grain to long grain glue up, using biscuits would do no more than help to keep the parts from pulling apart. They would reduce the surface gluing area, and don't insure alignment, as it is thought. Biscuits can get skewed and not allow the mating pieces to come together. On long edges, or multiple edges the setup time needed for the prepping with glue may take too long giving the glue time to "kick".
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[cgallery]

Some joinery methods can actually create a weak joint. Consider a long grain to long grain glue up, using biscuits would do no more than help to keep the parts from pulling apart. They would reduce the surface gluing area, and don't insure alignment, as it is thought. Biscuits can get skewed and not allow the mating pieces to come together. On long edges, or multiple edges the setup time needed for the prepping with glue may take too long giving the glue time to "kick".
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I'm just wondering (since you don't like biscuits at all) what kind of biscuit joiners you've tried?

The Makita and PC joiners I've used have provided very precise alignment.

I had a Ryobi where the blade cut too wide a slot for the biscuit and alignment was impossible w/ that unit.

[cabinetman]

I'm just wondering (since you don't like biscuits at all) what kind of biscuit joiners you've tried?

I do like biscuits and gravy. I have a DeWalt 682K. For the amount of space needed for glue, and the differences in biscuit thicknesses, there can be enough slop to make alignment difficult. This can be even more of a problem if the offset is in one direction. Cauls do help. I would rather cut my own splines out of the stock of my choice for the specific procedure.
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[SARGE..g-47]

"How do make a very strong miter"?.....

Secret mitered dove-tail which you rarely see these days and probably have never heard of. I still use them to attach base moldings around a chest that sit flat on the floor in lieu of having supported feet. And yeah.. they're a PITA to learn to cut but a fantastic joint in the right scenario.

[LarryG]

We all know that "cabinetman" doesn't like biscuits, he says so at every possible opportunity, but I think it's time to set the record straight as his objections as stated in his two posts above form a very hollow argument.

He says, "Consider a long grain to long grain glue up, using biscuits would do no more than help to keep the parts from pulling apart. They would reduce the surface gluing area ..."

Biscuits may slightly reduce the surface area on the mating long grain edges, but since they are essentially small loose tenons, they increase the glue surface overall. And if a few small biscuits reduce the amount of long grain glue surface by a small amount, a continuous spline obviously reduces it even more. But in both cases the trade-off is worth it, since the overall increase in glue surface exceeds what is lost on the edges.

He continues: "... and don't insure [sic] alignment, as it is thought."

No, they don't; but neither does any other joinery method. Splines can't ensure alignment. Mortises and tenons can't ensure alignment. Even dovetails cannot ensure alignment. It would be wonderful if joinery could ensure alignment, because then we could all spend a lot less time sanding!

In his subsequent post, "cabinetman" writes: "For the amount of space needed for glue, and the differences in biscuit thicknesses, there can be enough slop to make alignment difficult."

Yes, there must be space for the glue; but once again, this is true of every other joinery method. Splines have to have room for glue. Mortises and tenons have to have room for glue. Dovetails have to have room for glue. Dowels have to have room for glue. Etc. This is why no joinery method can ensure alignment.

It is, however, true that there can be variations in biscuit thickness. That is why woodworkers who use them much quickly learn to select the ones from the jar that are most consistent in thickness, that fit the slots most tightly. Still, in concept, this problem is no different than what can occur if a spline or a tenon is cut a little too thick or thin, or a slot or a mortise is cut a little too wide or narrow. All joinery methods depend on precision and attention to detail for best results.

More: "Biscuits can get skewed and not allow the mating pieces to come together."

On rare occasions, maybe; but then so can loose tenons. So can dowels. Careful workmanship will avoid the problem in all cases.

And lastly he says: "On long edges, or multiple edges the setup time needed for the prepping with glue may take too long giving the glue time to 'kick'."

True; but again, this is also true of splines (even more so, in fact) and other joinery methods like dowels.

Biscuits aren't perfect, but they have their place. If some woodworkers don't like them, they don't have to use them. We all have our personal preferences for all things, and this extends to joinery. But simple personal preference is not enough to render a given joinery method invalid.

[Nil]

I just figure if someone is shelling out $3000 for a bench, the only thing that is going to sit on it would be a priceless ming vase...

[Mr__Bill]

My first thought was 1/2 rebar bent to 90 deg. However I like Sarge's idea of a mitered dove-tail, something I haven't seen in a long time. Actually, when it's assembled your not suppose to see it but it is very strong.



Bill

[cabinetman]

We all know that "cabinetman" doesn't like biscuits, he says so at every possible opportunity, but I think it's time to set the record straight as his objections as stated in his two posts above form a very hollow argument.

At first I thought I'm being picked on again, but find out you somewhat agree with me. I can appreciate the context of your opinion, whether it constitutes "setting the record straight" or it forms a "hollow argument" is an opinion you are entitled to.

He says, "Consider a long grain to long grain glue up, using biscuits would do no more than help to keep the parts from pulling apart. They would reduce the surface gluing area ..."

Biscuits may slightly reduce the surface area on the mating long grain edges, but since they are essentially small loose tenons, they increase the glue surface overall. And if a few small biscuits reduce the amount of long grain glue surface by a small amount, a continuous spline obviously reduces it even more. But in both cases the trade-off is worth it, since the overall increase in glue surface exceeds what is lost on the edges.

He continues: "... and don't insure [sic] alignment, as it is thought."

No, they don't; but neither does any other joinery method. Splines can't ensure alignment. Mortises and tenons can't ensure alignment. Even dovetails cannot ensure alignment. It would be wonderful if joinery could ensure alignment, because then we could all spend a lot less time sanding!

In his subsequent post, "cabinetman" writes: "For the amount of space needed for glue, and the differences in biscuit thicknesses, there can be enough slop to make alignment difficult."

Yes, there must be space for the glue; but once again, this is true of every other joinery method. Splines have to have room for glue. Mortises and tenons have to have room for glue. Dovetails have to have room for glue. Dowels have to have room for glue. Etc. This is why no joinery method can ensure alignment.

I do have to disagree on M&T's and dowels not forming an aligned joint. Mine do or I don't use them. Not much you can do to some joints and retain joint integrity.

Biscuits have very little axial strength. I was using splines before there were biscuits. A well chosen material, like a cross grain spline will provide a better joint hands down than biscuits lined up end to end. On 3/4" stock a 1/4" spline in solid wood or even in 1/4" plywood is better than biscuits.

It is, however, true that there can be variations in biscuit thickness. That is why woodworkers who use them much quickly learn to select the ones from the jar that are most consistent in thickness, that fit the slots most tightly. Still, in concept, this problem is no different than what can occur if a spline or a tenon is cut a little too thick or thin, or a slot or a mortise is cut a little too wide or narrow. All joinery methods depend on precision and attention to detail for best results.

Splines can be made to as close a tolerance as necessary, whereas biscuits are "as is". Depending on the RH and MC, biscuits are more likely to swell than the wood species selected that has been acclimated.

More: "Biscuits can get skewed and not allow the mating pieces to come together."

On rare occasions, maybe; but then so can loose tenons. So can dowels. Careful workmanship will avoid the problem in all cases.

And lastly he says: "On long edges, or multiple edges the setup time needed for the prepping with glue may take too long giving the glue time to 'kick'."

True; but again, this is also true of splines (even more so, in fact) and other joinery methods like dowels.

Biscuits aren't perfect, but they have their place. If some woodworkers don't like them, they don't have to use them. We all have our personal preferences for all things, and this extends to joinery. But simple personal preference is not enough to render a given joinery method invalid.

I don't think I used the word "invalid". I may not like biscuits but I have my opinion which I share, that's all any of us can do. I find (my opinion again), that joinery shortcuts aren't for me.

I have my "opinion" on pocket screws for example. The way we know them today is a variation of what I used before pocket holes. In the trade we called that process "toe screwing", or "toe nailing", and it was used as a last resort. Personally, I think pocket screws are junk joinery. For those that like them and use them that is their preference. In stating our preferences and opinions, there will be some that don't agree, and that is just the way it is. I'm not saying my methods or opinions are the only way. I wouldn't suggest a method that would be an inferior one.

I would hope that sharing my experience and opinions may be of some help or interest to some, for whatever it's worth.
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[John Blunt]

Hey "CGallery", Thanks for the e-mail. I decided to join this forum to answer you. We use Domino joints, and they have stood the test of time. I really like the blind miter joint, and I also like realistic prices! The domino is a good compromise
http:
//www.liveedgeonline.com/index.php
http://www.isgoodwoodworks.com/