Face Frames

[TCOTTLE]

You could just use glue and clamps.

Pin nails would work. Or, use small finish nails and drive them into the front edge of the cabinet. Leave them proud about 1/4", and snip off the heads at an angle. Then add glue and tap down the FF.
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I was curious what method you would use CMan.
I think I am going to use a stopped groove in the FF, put biscuit slots in the carcase, and line them up that way.
I wanted to use the biscuits more for alignment as well as gluing surface.

[cabinetman]

I was curious what method you would use CMan.
I think I am going to use a stopped groove in the FF, put biscuit slots in the carcase, and line them up that way.
I wanted to use the biscuits more for alignment as well as gluing surface.

IMO, biscuits, pocket screws, dowels or splines of any kind are not necessary for attaching a face frame. Those methods are overkill. Gluing and clamping is more than sufficient for attaching them. Once the glue cures, you can't pull them off.

You might consider just making a frameless cabinet. There are many advantages. You don't have the time, expense, and hassle of making and installing face frames. You have a better selection of hinges. The cabinets will have more usable space. Unless a face frame for the bottom of the cabinet is milled to that thickness, the cabinet will be difficult to clean.

Unless the desired look is to see the face frame, many applications for door sizes are with minimal gaps, so, you don't see it anyway. As for cabinet rigidity, I've never had a problem with frameless cabinets.
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[cgallery]

Not sure I'm following you. That need exists whether the continuous slot is on the carcass, or on the face frame. Or am I missing your meaning?

If the FF is flush to the inside of the cabinet, you can just adjust the fence on the slot cutter until the blade plunges into the already cut slot on the carcase. A little trial and error, but should yield perfect results and setup shouldn't take long.

OTOH, if they're not flush, you have no reference for setting up the fence on the slot cutter. And if the tolerances of the frame aren't held very tightly, you may need to adjust the biscuit cutter's fence from frame to frame.

In reality, I'm not sure what cutting the continuous slot in the carcase or frame actually buys you. If the FF is flush to the inside of the cabinet, you have a perfect reference. Make a bunch of pencil marks (use a story board if you want to be precise), then plunge the carcase AND the FF.

I think I could make 20 plunges in a carcase about as fast as I could align a tall fence and run four pieces through it.

There just doesn't appear to be that much of a time savings to me.

[TCOTTLE]

CMan -
The way that "the boss" wants them is with face frames/overlay.
I guess i figured I dont know how much I trust only glue with the weight of the doors. I might just be paraniod.


Cgallery -
If I have to run biscuits in the FF, then I feel it should be clamped to the edge of the table etc.
Running a quick stopped groove on the FF, then putting some biscuit slots in the carcase seems like it would be faster and more accurate than screwing around with the biscuit cutter and the face frame.


I will post pics of my progress, it may be a little over kill, but I want them to last, plus I am just beginning, so I want to try out a few different techniques, including rabbets and dados for the carcase.

[cgallery]

Cgallery -
If I have to run biscuits in the FF, then I feel it should be clamped to the edge of the table etc.

Could always have your wife hold/spin them.

My wife loves doing that kind of stuff.

It allows her to tell people, "I made this cabinet. Well, he helped."

[LarryG]

If the FF is flush to the inside of the cabinet, you can just adjust the fence on the slot cutter until the blade plunges into the already cut slot on the carcase. A little trial and error, but should yield perfect results and setup shouldn't take long.

OTOH, if they're not flush, you have no reference for setting up the fence on the slot cutter. And if the tolerances of the frame aren't held very tightly, you may need to adjust the biscuit cutter's fence from frame to frame.

I see what you mean and that's true; but what I meant was, the same applies when positioning the continuous slot on the face frame, rather than in the edges of the carcase. If the frames are flush with the carcase, locating the slot is pretty easy. If not, then maybe not.

In reality, I'm not sure what cutting the continuous slot in the carcase or frame actually buys you. [snip] There just doesn't appear to be that much of a time savings to me.

Agreed. When I first saw this technique on NYW, I thought, "Oh, hey, that's pretty clever." And in a big-volume production shop, with one guy cutting out carcases over here, and another guy building face frames over there, with both sent to a third guy for assembly, maybe it is. But after thinking about it, it seems to me that for someone working alone, building a small quantity of cabinets, it might actually cost time.

The continuous slot also reduces the amount of glue surface between the carcase edge and the FF, although there is probably still more than enough left to do the job.

[TCOTTLE]

Could always have your wife hold/spin them.

My wife loves doing that kind of stuff.

It allows her to tell people, "I made this cabinet. Well, he helped."

She doesnt like the cold .
Hopefully I can get the furnace figured out soon!

[TCOTTLE]

The continuous slot also reduces the amount of glue surface between the carcase edge and the FF, although there is probably still more than enough left to do the job.

This has turned into quite an interesting thread.

Larry, it is my feeling that the internal glue surfaces that the biscuits provide are as valuable if not more than the butt joints.

It seems to me like it is a good replacement for mechanical fasteners as well, which I will not have to fill in/sand/worry about color matching at a later time.

[Mr__Bill]

If, rather than biscuits you used a spline, there would be no loss of glue surface. It could be a continuous slot as the whole slot is filled with the spline. You could use whatever slot cutter you have and then size the spline to match.

Bill,
always thinking of ways for others to do more....

[TCOTTLE]

The thing about a spline, is trying to align all 4 edges perfectly :/

[Mr__Bill]

The thing about a spline, is trying to align all 4 edges perfectly :/

Ah, now I see what your problem is, you don't have a large enough rubber mallet!



Bill

there is nothing that can't be broken by trying to fix it...

[JimD]

I think biscuits to hold on a face frame is an unnecessary complication for the reasons already noted. You don't need the biscuits for strength and it is difficult to line up the slots. Making a continuous slot takes care of position in one direction but not the other so you can still have a problem. At most I put them on one edge to help a bit with alignment during glueup.

I prefer what cabinetman already said. Either just glue and clamp or put a few pin nails into the plywood before applying the face frame that stick up a little and use them to keep the face frame from sliding around as you apply pressure with the clamps.

Butt joint with modern glues is plenty strong in my experience. Why mess around with fasteners you don't need?

Jim

[TCOTTLE]

Mostly because I have kids in the house that are part spider monkey, and a cabinet door looks like a great thing to use as leverage to climb the walls.

I can't have nice things....

[hermit]

I have embarked on the journey of making my own kitchen cabinets as well. It has been a slow process because I keep getting side tracked on other things, but I decided to try the pocket screws on the carcass side to hold the frames on. It worked great! I have used just glue before, but I like the pocket screws because you don't have to mess around with the clamps. Those pocket screws are slick. I used them to join the face frame members also. Since I got that little jig, my biscuits joiner seems to collect dust now. Good luck.

Todd