Why Did Deft Lacquer Do That?

[partialresponse]

I'm finishing up a project in Ash. I've stained it with Minwax red mahogany 225 and decide to seal it with clear lacquer, I found some Deft clear gloss spray laquer (in a can) at Lowes and decided to try it. Unfortunately it dulled the glossy finish of the mahogany stain. (There are other parts of the project that are finished in Tung oil - these were not high-gloss and so were unaffected by the lacquer.) I thought it would look like a clear polyurethane finish over the stain but it didn't. Is this typical of sprayed lacquer? I've sanded down the mahogany-stained parts to start again. I'm tempted to try the brush-on variant of the same lacquer. Will that yield different results? If not, I will just have to make do with polyurethane even though the rest of the project (the oiled parts) is finished in lacquer. This is the first time I've worked with lacquer and while I love the short dry time I'm not so sure I like the dull finish.

Any comments?

Thanks
Kofi

[mschrank]

Deft makes a 'satin', 'gloss', and 'high gloss.' Which one were you using?

[partialresponse]

Mike,

I was using the 'gloss'. I saw the 'satin' but didn't see a 'high-gloss'. Hmmmm, maybe that's my problem.

- Kofi

[cabinetman]

It's very difficult to get sufficient coverage with a spray can. Without using a sealer, the first applications likely just penetrated. Lacquer needs a "build" to the applications to get a film finish.

With a spray can, getting the right distance, utilizing the pattern and delivery offered, either not enough gets laid down, or too much could be applied and getting runs. Lacquer works best if it has a chance to stay wet enough to get a "coat". The cans are as very fast dry.

Try a sample and try to get a wet coat without getting runs. After maybe 2-3 of those type coats, you should see a "gloss".
.

[cgallery]

It's very difficult to get sufficient coverage with a spray can.

Hey Cabinetman, I've never used spray lacquer (in a can or otherwise) so your comments raised a question for me.

I've read that when spraying lacquer, the new layers burn into the old ones.

Is there any problem with spraying lots of thin coats vs. a thicker "wet" coat? Will the resulting finish or many thin coats be duller or anything? Or just take more time.

The reason I ask is I've often thought of trying the spray cans, but want to know how forgiving the finish is, first. I don't care if my first five coats look dull, as long as the finish eventually starts to build and the result is a nice gloss when I'm done.

[cabinetman]

Hey Cabinetman, I've never used spray lacquer (in a can or otherwise) so your comments raised a question for me.

I've read that when spraying lacquer, the new layers burn into the old ones.

The "burn in" is from the solvent base (for lacquer thinner, it's acetone) dissolves the existing lacquered surface. This is the general idea.

Is there any problem with spraying lots of thin coats vs. a thicker "wet" coat? Will the resulting finish or many thin coats be duller or anything? Or just take more time.

You need enough of an application to create a "wet" coat, the thinner the better. That's the problem with spray cans. It's hard to get enough material evenly as it dries so fast. If I was resigned to using cans, thin coats would be best. The last coat can be wet sanded up to a high grit and "rubbed out".

The reason I ask is I've often thought of trying the spray cans, but want to know how forgiving the finish is, first. I don't care if my first five coats look dull, as long as the finish eventually starts to build and the result is a nice gloss when I'm done.

Ideally that would be the way to do it.
.

[partialresponse]

So it seems it may be better to use lacquer in liquid form with a brush? Do I hear a 'yes'? I initially decided to try the spray because I thought it would give me a smoother finish than a brush.

I'm still not sure of the advantage (except quicker application) that lacquer has over polyurethane.

Thanks
Kofi

[cabinetman]

So it seems it may be better to use lacquer in liquid form with a brush? Do I hear a 'yes'? I initially decided to try the spray because I thought it would give me a smoother finish than a brush.

I'm still not sure of the advantage (except quicker application) that lacquer has over polyurethane.

Thanks
Kofi

I'm not a big fan of brushing lacquer. It's basically the same as a spray grade, but has a retarder added. I only use it in extreme cases for touch up at a jobsite. Brushing lays down too much material in my opinion, and trying to draw it out with a brush is a PITA.

Waterbase polyurethane is much easier to work with, and gives equal results. It also likes to be sprayed.
.

[cgallery]

So it seems it may be better to use lacquer in liquid form with a brush? Do I hear a 'yes'?

I don't have any first-hand experience, but I've read that the brush on Deft can be problematic, too.

[partialresponse]

So exactly why, other than attempting to follow a project plan exactly, am I bothering with lacquer? As I mentioned before, I have already done some parts of the project in this spray lacquer. Must I remove it (by sanding) before re-doing the whole thing in polyurethane? Or can I just apply the polyurethane over the lacquer? I'm referring to a water-based polyurethane (the Minwax brand.)

Thanks for all you answers and also for your patience with me!

- Kofi

[mschrank]

I don't think you'll have good luck putting water-based poly over solvent based laquer. You could try a coat of shellac to seperate the two, but that sounds like a lot of trouble to me. If I were you, I'd stick with the laquer.

I've used the Deft spray cans on small projects quite a few times, and have been really happy with the results. It dries so fast you can do 5-6 thin coats in a day and no sanding (Poly requires sanding if you don't apply the subsequent coats within a certain amount of time).

Try finding some of the high-gloss Deft and use that for your last couple of coats...I think you'll be pleased.

[Russianwolf]

why bother with Lacquer?

because the feel is totally different and in my experience it doesn't yellow compared to Poly.

I use both the spray and brush on Deft extensively and love them (maybe because I get a little high while applying, who knows). With the Ash that you are working with it will absorb several coats before you will start seeing the finish build with the spray. Just keep at it. The brush on will build more quickly, but you have to be very careful not to over apply as you will get runs quickly.


My method with the spray is to spray from about 10 inches in a fairly quick motion. Do three passes per coat. let sit for about 5 minutes (it dries very fast) and then recoat. With the spray you will need between 6 and 10 coats (I've gone as high as 15 on some of the chess boards that I've made, with the brush on I never have done more than 4 coats). You will wind up with an orange peel coat (most likely), and then I wet sand with with 400, 1000, and 2000 grits. You can take it to a glass-like finish if you want.

By the way, If I recall correctly the three types are Satin, Semi-Gloss, and Gloss. If you get a can of brush on Satin and don't stir it, it is actually Gloss as what makes it Satin is an additive that will fall out of solution.

[partialresponse]

why bother with Lacquer?

because the feel is totally different and in my experience it doesn't yellow compared to Poly.

OK, noted.

I use both the spray and brush on Deft extensively and love them (maybe because I get a little high while applying, who knows). With the Ash that you are working with it will absorb several coats before you will start seeing the finish build with the spray. Just keep at it. The brush on will build more quickly, but you have to be very careful not to over apply as you will get runs quickly.

OK, I'll try it again. I applied only three coats the first time. It appears I need much more than that. And then wet sanding after that.

FYI, this is a large flat surface (top of an entertainment-center cabinet.)

And Minwax cautions against using their water-base polyurethane over the Mahogany 225 stain anyway. So I'm evidently resigned to using the lacquer anyway.

By the way, If I recall correctly the three types are Satin, Semi-Gloss, and Gloss.

Yes, those are the three I saw.

Finishing always tests my patience. After construction I'm always in a hurry to move the project indoors to it's resting place!

Many thanks
Kofi