Unintended crackle finish

[SwingKing]

I'm putting the final touches on a QSWO project and just had a minor disaster. The box is done and finished with dye, shellac, gel stain, and then 3 coats of Arm-R-Seal. Starting with the lid, I used synthetic steel wool to remove any final nibs and the surface was nice and smooth. I then appled a coat of Briwax dark wax and waited ~10 minutes for it to set.

When I went to buff out the wax, I discovered the finish had turned into a crackle-like texture over 50% of the surface. I tried sanding it down with 300 grit sand paper and re-applied the wax, but the texture came back. So the question is, what can I do about it?

I figure what I need to do is strip off the wax, sand again with 300 grit, apply 1-2 coats of Arm-R-Seal and then retry the wax. Does this sound reasonable? What can I use to strip off the wax? Anything else I need to check? Has anyone see poly do this before?

Puzzled and trying not to panic...

-- Ken

[pecker]

From your description, it sounds like the wax is dissolving the Armor Seal. It may be that the Armorseal won't cure over the gel stain, if the stain hasn't dried completely.
I'd quit using the wax.

[SARGE..g-47]

Lots of if's involved from my viewpoint. You used a oil base gel stain then used water based finish on top. I wouldn't have done that. Then you get crackle with wax but.. was it really the wax?

If the mixing of the oil based gel and water based top finish seemed OK.. I would second Pecker ( a second Pecker is a controversial subject, isn't it?) and drop the wax. If you had used oil based stain.. oil based top coat.. then wax I don't see an issure even though I am not convinced the issue is actually the wax in this case and possibly only a reaction to oil and water and then another oil based wax.

Curious as to how this comes out and how it's going to react down the road.

Good luck...

[crokett]

Before you do anything else I would experiment with scrap wood and your finish to figure out what combination of things caused the crackle. Then you can experiment to figure out how to fix it. I would not guess at a fix on your project. BTDT and caused worse problems.

[Lonnie in Orlando]

Ken:

I believe that the Briwax caused your problem. It contains toulene, the same stuff that's in paint remover. Antique dealers often use it on old pieces with less-than-perfect finishes to "revive" a dull or crackeled top coat. The finish on newly complete pieces is still too soft for Briwax. I used it on a newly finished piece one time - only to watch it wipe a way a thin varnish top coat. Learned my lesson.

Even the instructions on my fav, Johnson's Paste Wax, say: "On recently sealed surfaces, check instructions of finishing manufacturer as to length of time required before waxing.

Ideally, let the finish cure about a month before waxing and rubbing out. 'Course, none of us can wait that long!

>> UPDATE to answer your how-to question ...
Wish I could help. I'm sure other members of the forum can help. My objective would be to use the least agressive mechanical, chemical, or solvent method to avoid damaging the dye layer. Gel stain can be reapplied, but the dye layer will be difficult to touch up.

- Lonnie

[SwingKing]

Thanks for the responses:

Sarge: "Lots of if's involved from my viewpoint. You used a oil base gel stain then used water based finish on top. I wouldn't have done that. Then you get crackle with wax but.. was it really the wax?"

When I read this, it made sense to me but then something just didn't seem right. I've double checked and Arm-R-Seal is oil-based, not water-based, so it shouldn't have had a problem over the gel stain. Good idea though...

Lonnie: "I believe that the Briwax caused your problem. It contains toulene, the same stuff that's in paint remover. [...] The finish on newly complete pieces is still too soft for Briwax. I used it on a newly finished piece one time - only to watch it wipe a way a thin varnish top coat. Learned my lesson."

This is probably the root cause of the problem. I did try the wax on a test piece and everything worked fine, but there may have been a difference in the thickness or dryness in the real piece vs the test piece. I needed a dark wax and Briwax is what Rockler carries. It was nice because it went on much smoother that Johnsons Paste wax, but didn't realize there'd be a downside.

I'll have to see about a different type of wax or I can probably just wait 3-4 weeks before applying the wax. Hard to be patient, but it's a lot easier than refinishing the whole **** thing.

Thanks!

-- Ken

[SARGE..g-47]

Thanks for the update, Ken. And expecially the note on Arm n Seal being an oil base as I though it was water base which is a no-no I have found over oil based gel unless.. unless it it sealed with de-waxed shellac first. I do believe that Lonnie has hit upon something.

He mentioned letting it dry and most people don't have the patience. Actually I do have the patience as I learned long ago that finish not properly cured causes problems. And he mentioned toulene which I also avoid for the reason he mentioned. When I use gel stain I allow about 24 hours at least for it to gas off (evaporation of the oil based solvents) before application of an oil based finish. When I apply the finish I allow 8 hours between coats (most attack another coat in whatever time the can says it takes to dry). After the final coat I wait 1-2 weeks before I rub out depending on how long it takes to gas off and the finish to completely dry but.. add the word harden which is important. Most won't.

You really should not wax anything until the finish is allowed to set or harden. If you do you are simply working with a soft finish and the rubbing is going to take it's toll with even synthetic steel wool. I use 0000 Liberon steel wool from Jeff Hewitt's site. But... I kill two birds with one stone and use the steel wool to apply wax with the grain. This applies wax and knocks down sheen from the oil based finish in one shot.

I do believe Lonnie has nailed it as a prematurely hardened finish mixed with a Toulene added wax is asking for trouble. I use Liberon wax which contains no toulene and comes in about 15 colors. A bit more expensive than Johnsons but worth it. BTW.. I use the medium oak as 80% of my pieces are QSWO as I believe you were using. www.toolsforworkingwood.com and search wax in the search box for colors. Good stuff if you wish to try it. Joel that owns the store in Brooklyn post on several forums and is a hand tool afficiado and very close to expert on the subject.

Good luck and post your results as probably somebody learned a bit here including me. I am just about to finish a computer desk-hutch and have various stages of old gel.. oil finish and Liberon sitting over 1200 square feet at the moment. I have never had the problem you have but I do let it all cure properly and resist -impatience and avoid toulene based waxs

[SARGE..g-47]

Forgot something which I know is hard to believe with that long post. Here is a result of Mini-Wax mahogany gel on a mission coffee table and the desk (hutch almost done) with Bartley's American oak which is lighter. I don't use dye as I am a diaster with it (me.. not the dye) so I really don't bother with dewaxed shellac cost. Just something you can view on QWWO for future consideration if you like either tint on these pieces. If not.. disregard...

[cabinetman]

You might try using just mineral spirits to remove the wax. If the poly is cured enough it's likely it won't penetrate to the dye.

I find it much easier to keep the finishing schedule to a minimum. I use WB polyurethane over oil base stains with no problems. I try to get the final color with just stains/dyes and a topcoat. Using a wax will preclude any further finishing other than wax.
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