Adding End Grain to Veneer Substrate..??

[SARGE..g-47]

I'm building a 22" x 63" top for a computer desk-hutch. I have laminated two sheets of 1/2' ply together to form a sheet 22' x 60' x 15/16". I will then apply 5/16" re-sawn QSWO to the top to give me 1 1/4" thickness. But... I do not want to add bread-board ends as the style (Stickley) rules them out. I do not want to band the ends with long grain.

What I need is open grain ends with QSWO to hide the current ply layers now showing. So.. I need to add 1 1/2" of QSWO to each end of the 60" long ply laminate so the end grain shows.

So.. for those experienced WW who could use a little brain teaser.... how would you go about doing this?

[JR]

I do not want to add bread-board ends as the style (Stickley) rules them out. I do not want to band the ends with long grain.

This is crazy talk, IMHO! I've never heard or seen this rule before. I just don't think an acceptable result can come from this line of logic. (Can you tell I'm against this?)

I'd think it would be much more productive to examine breadboard techiques used in craftsman furniture. Details like ebonized square pegs or pronounced splines would look great.

My 2c.
JR

[Bill in Buena Park]

Sarge,
I'm not clear on the load-bearing requirements for QSWO end-grain being joined to the ends of the ply laminate - but can't you simply use an appropriate edge-jointing technique (anything from biscuits to routed joints depending on strength requirement), THEN add your 5/16" resawn QSWO over the top of the whole deal?

[SARGE..g-47]

This is crazy talk, IMHO! I've never heard or seen this rule before. I just don't think an acceptable result can come from this line of logic. (Can you tell I'm against this?)

I'd think it would be much more productive to examine breadboard techiques used in craftsman furniture. Details like ebonized square pegs or pronounced splines would look great.

My 2c.
JR

Let me retract and explain what I said about Stickley style ruling out bread-board ends. A & C is a hodge-podge of many craftsmans designs during a period of design referred to as the Arts and Crafts movement where designers rebelled against the overly ornate Victorian style that was dominant.

So... it does not rule out bread-board ends but.... I simply want open end grain as the Stickley hunt-board I am modifying to accomodate modern computer components had open grain. This is not a reproduction of that piece but a desk designed on it's principles. I have to leave the middle drawers out to accomodate feet.. legs.. and a key-board slide. I have to modify the left and right cabinets to accomodate CPU and manaul.. disk back-up.. etc. storage on the opposite cabinet which will have hidden drawers.

Simply.. I prefer open end grain to bread-board ends which have their own set of issues which I won't go into. That's about it and I made an error in stating bread-boards would not conform to the over-all Stickley style which varies greatly from one piece to another.

Regards...

[pecker]

I don't understand why your doing what your doing, but since your "veneers" are 5/16" thick, you could stack 3 of them together, underneath your top layer (which would be overhanging the substrate, which is conveniently 15/16"). This should look, from the edge perspective, like the end of a solid 20/16" thick board.

[SARGE..g-47]

Sarge,
I'm not clear on the load-bearing requirements for QSWO end-grain being joined to the ends of the ply laminate - but can't you simply use an appropriate edge-jointing technique (anything from biscuits to routed joints depending on strength requirement), THEN add your 5/16" resawn QSWO over the top of the whole deal?

Basically what my thoughts were when I did it yesterday, Bill. But.. I really wouldn't trust biscuits so I cut a 1/2" rabbet 1" into the end of the ply and then ripped some 4" wide QSWO. I rabbetted them to fit the ply rabbet and glued. Lots of glue surface there and should hold fine as you mentioned... the veneer will go over that even though I have been advised not to go that thick with veneer so I will use 1/16" and apply another 1/4" sheet of ply under the current to make up the 1/4" difference as ply is no truly 1/4".

This was just an exercise to see how others would approach the issue or if they would... I probably should have just stayed in the shop and worked in lieu of being in-quisitive..

Thanks for the suggestions....

[radhak]

...
I probably should have just stayed in the shop and worked in lieu of being in-quisitive..

And how do you propose the rest of us will learn ???


Thanks for posting - made me think. Would like to see more pics, particularly after the glue-up but before finishing. How are the other sides' edges going to be?

[Tom Miller]

...I cut a 1/2" rabbet 1" into the end of the ply and then ripped some 4" wide QSWO. I rabbetted them to fit the ply rabbet and glued.

But, now don't you have essentially a 22" wide piece of cross-grain attached to ply? There's going to be a lot of differential movement, isn't there? Or did I misunderstand?

Regards,
Tom

[SARGE..g-47]

But, now don't you have essentially a 22" wide piece of cross-grain attached to ply? There's going to be a lot of differential movement, isn't there? Or did I misunderstand?

Regards,
Tom

That piece is actually 19" wide Tom. I was going to add a 1 1/4" thick x 1 1/2" wide real piece of QS and spline into each side. But.. I think you are talking about the lower layer of end grain not matching the top veneer when added. I cut those end strips 4" wide and so is the veneer. I was hoping for a match but the more I think about it.. the lines in the end grain may be difficult to match exactly.. and they may move differently as the veneer is 1/4 which I have already decided is too thick.

And... it has been suggested to me by several to veneer both sides. At this point.. I may just go get another 30 bd. ft. of QS and go solid as none of that was calculated into the game plan. I have really never done any veneer of any significance as I always build solid. But the economy has forced me to re-think that a bit.

But.... I need to move on and it will only take a day to prep solid stock and glue up. I may do just that tommorrow as if I cut down to 1/16" on both sides.. I will have to add another 1/4" sheet of ply to the lamination. That just opens up another can of worms as far as dead-lines go.

So.... we shall see after I sleep on it.....

Regards...

[Bill in Buena Park]

...if I cut down to 1/16" on both sides.. I will have to add another 1/4" sheet of ply to the lamination...

Sarge, Perhaps the 5/16" QSWO was too thick, but maybe cutting in half to 1/8", and laminating both sides, might get you where you want to go.

[drumpriest]

Yeah Sarge, as Bill was saying I'd probably veneer both sides for stability, but looks good. I think the spline's a good idea too.

[SARGE..g-47]

I was not concerned about the veneer as fortunately I have learned from those that have made the mistake of going to thick and not veneering both sides that thin is better. But.. I am concerned about the issue on non match-up on the end grain and the three layers of end grain (upper veneer.. main body.. lower veneer) moving at different rates which could cause stress bad enough to end check.

Concerned enough I just called Suwanee Lumber and ordered 30 more bd. ft. of QS. The boy's down the hill from the upper warehouse at their sawmill are quarter sawing away on a log as we speak. I hate to spend the additional $120 but when you put as much work into a piece as this one will have... I don't want to keep second guessing myself as to those three layers getting "gypsy" and heading out in their own directions when they feel like moving.

So.. I now have a new 19" assembly table to add to my two large ones and 3 portable fold downs. I may stick this one in the back of my pick-up to make a mobile assembly table with long range capability. [I]ha.. ha... /I] Then again it may just get modified a tad and end up outside as an embryo of that potting table she wants as soon as I finish "all" her inside request. Finish is the key word there. Yeah, right...

So... I will pick-up QS after noon.. rip.. joint.. plane.. send it to the glue clamps and have it out by mid-night. Tomorrow I can sand to prep for finish so I can move on in lieu of waste more time.

Regards..

[Tom Miller]

OK, I know the horse is dead, but out of curiosity, here's one more flog....

I pictured what you were proposing to do is add small lengths of QSWO which were edge-glued to give a width of 19" as shown (ignoring the 4" wide front piece of QSWO:




So, the differential wood movement (with changes in humidity) I was referring to was this:





Again, I may have pictured this wrong....

Regards,
Tom
P.S. Congrats on the new assembly table!

[SARGE..g-47]

OK, I know the horse is dead, but out of curiosity, here's one more flog....

I pictured what you were proposing to do is add small lengths of QSWO which were edge-glued to give a width of 19" as shown (ignoring the 4" wide front piece of QSWO:

[ATTACH]12629[/ATTACH]


So, the differential wood movement (with changes in humidity) I was referring to was this:


[ATTACH]12630[/ATTACH]


Again, I may have pictured this wrong....

Regards,
Tom
P.S. Congrats on the new assembly table!

Yep.. exactly what I intended to do before my senses took hold of my tight wallet and made it take a trip to my supplier for 30 more BF of QS. I just got home from there after purchasing another $120 worth of life expectancy insurance as I'm going solid wood. I'm just not taking the risk on that end grain doing exactly as you suspect (and I do too) it will.

So... down to off-load. I could have it prepped this afternoon and glued up by to-night but... I will start prepping the hutch as the stuff I just picked up was quarter sawed this morning when I called. It checked out 11% on my pin type Timber-check I take and I want it down in the 8%-9% range as what I have left of QS is. So.. a few days to acclimate but that is not a time obstacle as there is much to do on the hutch with another 30 joints or so.

It never ends... she told me when I got home a nice oak desk swivel chair would be nice to go with the computer desk-hutch. Here we go again.. good thing she's good looking for I would move to a convent.

[Tom Miller]

Yep.. exactly what I intended to do...I'm just not taking the risk.

OK, thanks for the patience -- I wasn't sure if that's the part you thought was risky.

It never ends... she told me when I got home a nice oak desk swivel chair would be nice....

Oh, that'd be way over my head -- good luck!

Regards,
Tom