hanging kitchen cabinets....???

[drumpriest]

I have been motivated to build new kitchen cabinets by a small kitchen fire a couple of weeks ago. I've started construction and have the parts milled for the upper cabinets, but not assembled, as I'm still on the fence about the mounting method.

Having recently watch Normy build some kitchen bits, and having read quite a lot on the subject, it seems there are several methods that are acceptable. I've previously built a mounting rail into the back of my front bathroom's wall cabinet, just a 4"x3/4" piece along the top. I also mounted my back bathroom's wall cabinet via french cleat, but don't think that's a great idea for kitchen cabinets.

I was thinking to mortise and tenon in a mounting rail across the top of these, and under the bottom shelf, and keep those about 1/4" away from the back to allow for wall discrepancies. Any thoughts as to whether or not that should work well??

thanks gang...

[RayintheUK]

..... I also mounted my back bathroom's wall cabinet via french cleat, but don't think that's a great idea for kitchen cabinets.

I'm not sure of the reasoning here, Keith, but it's French cleats every time for me. The mounting rail can be in one length and absolutely level, providing you notch the relevant rear carcass sides. For re-decorating it's a breeze and - providing that the construction's solid - they're as good, if not better than, a screw-through mounting batten in each cabinet.

They'll certainly take the weight OK, although on large wall cabinets I tend to use two cleat runs - a simple jig locates the lower cleat and the carcass lower cleats. However, do not stand them off the wall, otherwise the rear carcass sides will not help with the weight transference.

Ray

[Popeye]

Mortise and tenons seem to be overkill to me. I don't see any reason what you're saying won't work. As Ray says, French cleats will hold up the heaviest cabinets.
I pocket screwed my mounting rails to the sides under the dadoed in top and just above the bottom shelfs. I used 1/4" backs on all my cabinets and made it all flush to the sides. Wall discrepancies are going to effect the cabinets thru the tops and bottoms anyway. Pat

[cabinetman]

As Ray and Pat pointed out, french cleats work very well, and benefit the installer, as all you have to do is mount the cleat, and hang the cabinet...easy enough for a one man team.

If I don't use french cleats, I'll use the hangrail system, which I call a "scrail" (a made up word from screw rail ). Depending on what the finish is on the inside and the outside of the cabinet, and which outside ends are visible, may direct how the rail will be mounted. Basically, a 3/4" piece of plywood or hardwood can conceivably be butt fitted between the ends and the underside of the top. If the sides and top are unseen, long screws can be driven through the sides into the rail and through the top into the rail.

An alternative method would be to create a rabbet for the ends and the top of the rail, and use glue and clamps, and fasteners. Backs should be recessed from the edges of the carcass to take into account for high spots in the wall and allow the rear edges to seat on the wall. If the hangrail is not wanted to be seen, the back can be rabbeted to a depth to account for the thickness of the back, the thickness of the rail, and whatever recess will be allowed. That way all you see inside the cabinet is the back. The hangrail will be glued into the same rabbet. IMO, it's not necessary to M&T the hangrail, as it sitting in a glued rabbet form the ends and top length is more than sufficient. I don't usually have a lower hangrail, as a properly done upper one is sufficient.

Another alternative would be to use a back thickness sufficient to carry the weight, and be used as a hanging panel. In this case I would use a minimum of 1/2".
.

[eezlock]

hanging kitchen cabinets ??

As others have said...french cleats best method of hanging cabinets. If in
doubt use a double row of cleats one above the other, spaced a few inches
apart. These will hold a lot of weight, more than you realize!
eezlock

[drumpriest]

I had decided against the cleat mostly because of the stud locations on my wall and the fact that the cabinets extend to the ceiling, making the little over an inch you lose from having to go up and over the cleat a potential issue, though molding could handle that....

As for M&T being overkill, yeah maybe, but I have a domino, and they are super easy to cut, so I use it in a lot of places where previously it'd be too much effort.

[chopnhack]

DP, if you cant use the cleat, make sure you use a suitably thick back (3/8 or 1/2)and simply hang the cab via its back with #8 screws. Square drive head screws with matching finish washers look real nice for this purpose and are plenty strong. Much stronger than anything you will put in those cabs. Save your time for the actual construction and finish than install, imho. If stud location will be a major headache you can recess the back ply of the cabs enough to mount a hang rail (a pce of 1/2-3/4 ply that you can run to span studs) and simply screw the cab the hang rail. If you use some construction adhesive behind it there shouldnt be any deflection. If you want to be really sure of this you can drill for toggles in between the missed stud locations. So many options,

[billwmeyer]

Cabinets

I am in the planning stages of a complete kitchen remodel, and I will also use french cleats, but I am gong to use a 1/2' or 3/4" cabinet back and reinforce with screws into the studs. It is just so easy to hang them straight with french cleats. Good luck on yours however you do it.

Bill

[drumpriest]

I would definitely have to span the rail over a couple of cabinets, as I don't have 2 per cabinet available in the wall, so to use the french cleat, I'd have to cut away some material from the sides of the cabinets to install the hanger portion of the cleat. That's really been the main reason I didn't go for french cleat, I suppose this wouldn't be THAT hard to do though....

One of the other reasons was that I was afraid that the cabinets may not sit flat against the wall if there is some variation to the wall that the cleat doesn't follow over those spans.

The "hanger rail" was to be 3/4" ply, I would think that should be sturdy enough for hanging it and then some. What really concerns me is I've not hung something where I have a gap in the back, as Norm suggests, where the back is 3/8" deeper than the sides.

[cabinetman]

What really concerns me is I've not hung something where I have a gap in the back, as Norm suggests, where the back is 3/8" deeper than the sides.

With the back fastened into a rabbet, even without glue, there is no problem with the space behind it. It's a common procedure in fabrication. If your concern is the back getting "bumped" loose, that's not a problem that I've found with that procedure.

Before I could afford air tools, I used box nails. With air tools, narrow crown staples work very well, more predictable in holding power than brads.
.

[JimD]

The one time I built a complete kitchen, the back of the cabinets was 1/4 luan with 3/4 pieces at the top and bottom to hang them with (by screwing into the studs). Where there was a gap, I used a moulding to hide it. We were fine with the appearance but if I do it again, I would probably scribe.

In my current house, I built a few wall cabinets for a kitchette in the basement. I did the drywall work and it is flat and plumb. I skipped the 1/4 and just put the 3/4 pieces to screw into the studs.

I think Norm's idea of 3/4 backs is poor. Allowing some space to scribe is better than what I have done at least in most cases but 3/4 back wastes space, wastes materials, and will make a large cabinet so heavy it is hard to install. I think you need 3/4 material for attachment but that does not mean the whole back should be 3/4.

I see nothing wrong with a french cleat but kitchen cabinets in the U. S. are permanent installations, unlike Europe and possibly elsewhere. For permanent installation, a french cleat seams unnecessary - as well as complicating fit to the ceiling as you note.

Jim