Face-Frame vs. Frameless

[Gator95]

Googled this subject and got a huge amount of information about the differences between the two in terms of setting up an efficient shop, learned about System 32, true32, and a whole bunch of stuff around CNC cutting patterns that I really never knew exisited. Unfortunately, at the end I didn't find out the very simple and basic answer I was looking for. Here is what I was wondering about:

If a Face-Frame is needed for stabilizing a plywood 5-sided box and adding strength and keeping is square, what is done differently in making a frameless 5-sided box to give it similar strength to a box with a face frame?

Is the face-frame in a framed cabinet (or bookcase, or entertainment center, etc...) really just functioning as a way to hide the plywood edge? I'd always assumed it was structurally necessary.

Really basic question, was just suprised I didn't see a clear answer anywhere.

[dewi1219]

Whether or not a face frame is "necessary" depends mostly on the inteded use of the cabinet. For bookcases or entertainment centers where the shelves will carry heavy loads, the face frame certainly helps to strengthen the shelves and eliminate sagging. While this can be accomplished other ways (like double-thickness shelves, etc.) the face frame looks better to some people and also hides plywood edges like you mention.

If the shelves are securely attached to the back of the cabinet with glue, brads, etc. this will help to further strengthen the shelves just as the face frame does. Necessary is a strong word, but face frames are definitely beneficial. But they are more work, and some people prefer the frameless look.

[drumpriest]

Basically a frameless cabinet is just weaker. So to answer your question of "what is done differently in making a frameless 5-sided box to give it similar strength to a box with a face frame", the answer is "nothing".

You can use this tool to determine what the shelf sag will be given some parameters...

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm

I use face frames, and my cabinets have fixed shelves and floating shelves, the fixed shelves being attached to the back with glue. Face frames can have the added benefit of keeping suspect plywood straighter as well.

As dewi1219 states, it's more about what look you want, and what work it'll do. I tend to fill my bookcases with....um....books. Not with bowls and plants and picture frames, which is apparently what you should do when purchasing the fiberboard bookcases sold daily to the masses, so I typically use FFs.

[JimD]

When you use 3/4 plywood for the box, you do not need the strength of the face frame and it is a cosmetic question. Often cabinets you buy do not use 3/4 plywood, however, so the face frame may be necessary for structural reasons.

I have made both types. When I finished my basement, I needed inexpensive cabinets quickly and so I built them of 3/4 melamine which is weaker than plywood. I used no face frames, just full overlay doors and tape with heat glue on it over the melamine edge. Not high end but functional. They work fine. This kind of construction would be good for the 32mm system but I had not heard of it at the time. I now have the jig Rockler sells and would probably use it if I made similar cabinets today. I did an entire kitchen for our last house using 3/4 oak plywood with frameless cabinets. In that case, I wanted the slightly greater interior capacity and ease of moving things into and out of the cabinets you get with frameless. They were plenty strong. I used thin veneer, glued on like solid wood, to hide the edge and overlay raised panel doors.

If you like the look or one of the other advantages of frameless cabinets I would go that way. If you prefer the look of the face frames or think you need the strength, I would get a pocket screw jig and build them that way. Pocket screws make the face frames awfully easy.

Jim

[drumpriest]

Jim, I agree that most cabinets don't need face frames, my bookcases did need them, for strength, regardless of the 3/4 plywood carcass. Books of the right shape can weigh in well over 100 lbs over a 3' span, think time life or gaming books.

One other reason for face frames is that it allows you material to overhang the cabinet for "built in" installations, where you can scribe the wall and cut the frame to match.

I'm in agreement with Jim though that most things don't need the FF for strength, though my wife does squirrel away food as though the depression is tomorrow....hmm....

[cabinetman]

When I first started building cabinets there weren't any euro hinges, but there were hinges that allowed overlay or inset doors. Most all my cabinets then were face framed. I never used pocket screws or dowels or splines to attach them to the cabinet.

I will build a cabinet with a FF if there is a reason, like a design element or to match existing cabinetry. FF's will add some rigidity to the front of the cabinet, but they're not necessary. Most all my work is frameless. Frameless presents less of a problem with mounting drawers, shelf placement, finishing, cost of the hardwood for the FF's, and the extra labor.

The only fixed shelves I install are in tall cabinets which is done for structural integrity. All other shelves are loose, and cosmetically appropriate so they can be flipped over. Keeping the width reasonable helps with minimizing sagging. Frameless cabinets are easier to keep clean, and items don't get caught behind the FF. Most FF hinges aren't as hefty as ones for frameless cabinets.

As for keeping a frameless cabinet square, if it is fabricated properly it's less likely to be out of square.
.

[Ed62]

Here's a quote from Practical Shop Cabinets by Tom Clark: "As soon as it was finished, we loaded the heavy parts in it, and a couple of days later the sides buckled outward and one drawer fell out of it's tracks. Cabinets without face frames are not very strong." So those saying it depends on the usage are probably right on the money. A lot of weight storage would likely be better made with face frames.

Ed

[pcombs]

I think face framed gives not only more structural strength by is more aesthitacally pleasing especially with cabinets. You cannot rounover, chamfer etc a frameless for example.

Furthermore, the plywood comming in nowadays seems to be sourced exclusively from China. It is lighter and less truer (flat and square). man gone are the days when we used to get the canadian plywood in the Borgs

[cabinetman]

Here's a quote from Practical Shop Cabinets by Tom Clark: "As soon as it was finished, we loaded the heavy parts in it, and a couple of days later the sides buckled outward and one drawer fell out of it's tracks. Cabinets without face frames are not very strong." So those saying it depends on the usage are probably right on the money. A lot of weight storage would likely be better made with face frames.

Ed

Upper (wall) cabinet ends don't buckle outward. It's a stretch for me to believe that a base cabinet loaded with weight on the inside, could transfer the forces to buckle the ends of the cabinet outward and have drawers fall out. IIRC, I think he posted that he uses the inexpensive undermount type euro slide. Those have captive rollers, and cannot "fall" out of their tracks.

Was there a mention of what sheet stock was used for the carcass? We're back to craftsmanship and materials, not necessarily face frames.
.

[JimD]

The last bookshelf I made had a face frame. It is not wide and the books it holds are not real heavy but it was the way the rest of the bookshelves in my wife's classroom were made do I made it that way. It is painted so I used softwood so the extra materials were not expensive.

I also have a bookshelf about 4 feet wide made of softwood that holds magazines and books. It is marginal for strength. I plan to add some built in bookshelves in the basement which will be 30 inches or so wide and will probably get face frames. I saw some nice built-in bookshelves with glass doors that I want to copy.

I agree that wide bookshelves need a lot of strength. I guess bookshelves are not what I was thinking of as typical cabinets. I've made 3 foot wide or more kitchen cabinets very successfully with no face frames.

Jim

[jabe]

I've made FF cabinets in the past but, now I make frameless euro style cabinets. I use all 3/4" lumber core or 13 ply-plywd. and have found no strength issues with my cabinets. I refuse to use any type of mdf or particle bd. material as it's just junk and will not hold up to the humidity we have in the islands. Most of my jobs are to replace FF PB cabinets that were so poplular in the 70s & 80s. As Cman says it's a lot easier to fabricate with no spacers needed for the drawer runners or pullout trays. So if you make frameless cabinets with mdf, PB, or 1/2" plywd, it'll be weak. Use 3/4" 13-ply or lumber core and it'll just be fine.

[Gator95]

Thanks everyone. Think I got it.

Thiner material or heavy top loads= use face frame.
Good solid 3/4, true sheetgoods cut square and joined square with medium-low loads= frames optional.