Slow-setting glue?

[Anna]

Considering the problems I've been having, I need a good alternative to Tite-bond II and III. Something that would give me >30 minutes (even an hour will be okay) before it becomes tacky and sets. Any recommendations for cabinet-making?

I also read that I can add water to Tite-bond to open the time window a bit. Has anyone tried that? What's a good ratio?

Thanks for any help,
Anna

[radhak]

This tip seems to be in response to your query.

Just in case that page disappears, I'm pasting it here :

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Woodworking Tips via Email #61:
Slow-Setting Glue
Yellow woodworkers glue is terrific stuff. But it's not always the best choice in every gluing situation. Sometimes you need more time to apply glue and assemble all the parts than the few minutes yellow glue gives you.

There are a several things you can do in this kind of situation. Whenever we have problems getting a complicated glue job together quickly, we sometimes switch from yellow woodworkers glue (like Titebond or Elmer's Carpenters' glue) to a white all-purpose glue (such as Elmer's Glue-All).

Another option is to use a hide glue or a powdered plastic (urea-formaldehyde) resin glue. Both of these glues set up slower than yellow glue and are just as strong. (You can find them at most hardware stores and in many woodworking mail order catalogs.)

Garrett Wade http://www.garrettwade.com sells a "Slo-Set" glue in their catalog that gives you more working time (20-30 minutes), but still achieves 75% of its strength after clamping for 30 minutes.

The last option is one of the easiest. You can thin Titebond yellow glue with about 5% water (one part water to twenty parts glue). One of the researchers at Franklin Industries (manufacturer of Titebond) told us that this will slow the set time about 50%. And he said that it won't have any significant effect on the strength of the glue joint as long as you don't mix in more than 5% water.

To test this, we glued up three sets of boards. The first set didn't have any water mixed in with the glue. The second set had 5% water, and the third set had 10% water. We didn't stick the boards together right away, but let them sit open.

As expected, the first boards got tacky within minutes. The second set took longer. And the glue on the third set of boards was too thin and runny.

After the glue joints were put together and dry, we broke the joints apart. The 10% boards broke apart at the glue line -- not a good sign. But the other two sets pulled splinters from both sides of the glue line. That's the sign of a good glue joint -- one where the glue is stronger than the surrounding wood fibers.

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[Slik Geek]

Allegedly you can add one part water to twenty parts Tite-bond glue without significantly degrading its strength. That lengthens the working time, but probably not as long as you are looking for. (PS - I've never tried this, just what I've read).

You can find epoxies that will give you the working time you seek (30 minutes, anyway).

Polyurethane adhesives allegedly approach the working time you seek. I haven't used them enough to give a recommendation, and I certainly haven't tested the working time of polyurethane glues either.

[gwyneth]

You could also try chilling the glue. Virtually everything takes longer when it's cold (Bondo, epoxy, etc.), and there's a good chance that refrigerating the 5% dilution for a couple of hours would give you enough time.

[Anna]

You could also try chilling the glue. Virtually everything takes longer when it's cold (Bondo, epoxy, etc.), and there's a good chance that refrigerating the 5% dilution for a couple of hours would give you enough time.

Wouldn't that make it too viscous, though? It might make it difficult to spread the glue, although I really don't know (never tried it yet).

I will try diluting the Tite-bond tomorrow and see. I just hope that the amount of dilution isn't too sensitive. It seems like there's a big difference in the effect of 5% and 10%.

Thanks, folks.

Anna

[Lonnie in Orlando]

Anna:

Nothing worse than learning that the glue will set up before you finish assembling and clamping the project.

May need a two-step solution --
> Assembly / clamping
> Glue choice

Assembly:
What are you making that needs an hour of assembly and tweaking?

Perhaps forum members can collectively help find ways to make sub assemblies or find a different way to clamp.

Glue:
I wouldn't recommend polyurathane glue. The expanding foam produced as it cures may prevent the parts from seating if there is a long time before clamping. Plus it is a mess to use in complicated glue-ups.

Epoxy could be a choice for open time, but it is hard to clean up the squeeze out etc.

- Lonnie

[atgcpaul]

Urea formaldehyde glues will work. I have used DAP Weldwood plastic resin
glue for bent laminations with good success. Just add water. Work in an
air conditioned space because heat will greatly accelerate the reaction and
reduce your open time. You can put the glue pot in ice water to really extend
the open time. I have only found this at Ace Hardware or smaller hardware
stores, not HD or Lowes. Wear a mask when you mix the powder and add
it slowly or it will clump up.

There are more expensive urea formaldehyde glues, too, that come in one gallon
jugs but if you aren't doing a lot of glue-ups, it's not economical because they
have a 1 year shelf life. You can store the liquid portion in the fridge, though,
to extend its life. These glues can be bought in different colors. The DAP
product doesn't have a clear glue-line. It's like a thinned out milk chocolate
color. The more expensive ones start our lighter.

Paul

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I am currently using this . . .

http://www.grizzly.com/products/h5331

but it is only about 20 minutes open time. I don't know of a white or yellow that is going to have an open time of 1 hour.

Lee Valley has some longer open time glue but it does not exceed 20-30 minutes.

[Lonnie in Orlando]

Paul -

How long have you been able to work DAP Weldwood? I've had varying success. Some fairly short, some longer. May have been my powder to water ratio, or temperature. (?) Does age of powder affect working time? I don't know how long the powder had been on the shelf at Ace. FYI - I mixed some that was a couple of years old -- remained gritty.

- Lonnie

[atgcpaul]

Paul -

How long have you been able to work DAP Weldwood? I've had varying success. Some fairly short, some longer. May have been my powder to water ratio, or temperature. (?) Does age of powder affect working time? I don't know how long the powder had been on the shelf at Ace. FYI - I mixed some that was a couple of years old -- remained gritty.

- Lonnie

I don't know how old the DAP I bought was but it's supposed to be good for one
year--don't know if that's from the time you open it or date of manufacture--
which I couldn't find on the package. I stayed pretty close to what was
suggested on the package.

I used it in dry, 75-80 degree weather. I got 30-45 minutes before it got
tacky on me. I was at 20 minutes when I finished rolling it on, 45 minutes by
the time I got all the clamps in place. I was still able to slide the pieces
around at that time. Let it harden 24 hours in my form and next day no
problems.

Paul

[Black wallnut]

Anna, white woodworker's glue i.e. elmer's has a much longer open time than yellow glue with nearly the same stength. The down side is it is not waterproof and should only be used for indoor projects. In the "old articles" section of the site Sam once posted a rather extensive explaination of wood glues.

[Anna]

Mark, thanks for the tip. It's for an indoor cabinet, so waterproofing isn't going to be a problem (I hope). Is this white Elmer's glue different from the one we used in school? Or is there a special white glue for woodworking?

Anna

[jking]

Mark, thanks for the tip. It's for an indoor cabinet, so waterproofing isn't going to be a problem (I hope). Is this white Elmer's glue different from the one we used in school? Or is there a special white glue for woodworking?

Anna

Nope, same old white Elmer's you would have used in school.

If you're thinking you need more than 30 minutes of open time with your glue, I would suggest two things. First, look at doing your glue-up in stages if possible. If you won't be compromizing anything or risking fitup issues, glue-up a couple of sections of the project separately. Then later, assemble the sections into the whole. Second, consider doing more than one dry fit. Sometimes, the glue-up sequence can make a noticeable difference in how long the overall glue-up takes. Don't ask how I know this. You might also think about recruiting assistance in doing the glue-up. Having another person to help out can speed things up.

[gwyneth]

Nope, same old white Elmer's you would have used in school.

Just make sure it's not the Elmer's Washable School Glue...you want good old Glue-All. If it says 'washable' in large letters it's newfangled and much weaker (so it can wash out of clothes when dry, unlike the old-fangled kind.)