drawer carcass - mdf ok?

[footprintsinconc]

another question: i have finalized my drawer layout, and now am wondering what i should make the drawers out of. they will be 1'-2" wide x 2'-2" long x 3" and 5" and 7" deep.

i have a bunch of 5/8"mdf and a lot of 3/8" plywood. is either of this suitable for the drawer carcass?

thanks in advance for the advice. - regards,

[cabinetman]

Depending on the joint you plan to use, you'll probably have to use a rabbet if you use MDF. I wouldn't use MDF, as once the rabbet is made the edge of the stock gets real brittle and can break off easily. IMO, the 3/8" ply is a little too thin. If these are just shop drawers, think about the load and wear factor. I would stick with a minimum of 1/2" ply, Baltic Birch, if you can afford it. Regular maple, birch, or oak in 1/2" work very well.

[RayintheUK]

I've made a load of drawers out of 3/4" MDF with 1/2" ply bottoms. All drawers on my Mobile Cabinet were made with dadoed joints for the back into the sides and a double row of biscuits to hold the fronts on. They've been in heavy service for years now without a problem. Here they are in the assembly stage, fronts downward:



The main structural consideration is not having them pull apart, so there is another way, if you've got the time and inclination:



These parts, made with Leigh's IsolocTM "Key" template, became the four drawers for a 600mm (2feet) wide drawer unit in a busy kitchen, fitted with full extension 100lb. stainless self-closing runners - holding up great. Half-blind dovetails would have been as effective, I'd guess, but I wanted to try the "Key" and will use it again - all that glue surface!

I'm a fan of MDF, but I'll always go for ply bottoms. Well glued and squarely clamped, they're very good. I tend to make drawer boxes, then apply false fronts with the pulls screwed right through so that they operate on the box and not just on the fronts. HTH

Ray.

[footprintsinconc]

Ray, thanks for the photos! i like the key template cuts, they look really neat.

what did you mean by :
"...so that they operate on the box and not just on the fronts. HTH "

did you mean that the force from the handle on the false front will transmit into the box instead of doing as you showed in the first picture?

and lastly what is a halfblind dovetail?

regards,

[drumpriest]

A 1/2 blind dovetail is only visible from the side, not the front. A "pin" is routed that is roughly 1/2 the size of the front face material, and a corresponding socket is routed into the drawer front. The pin is then glued into the socket, and the dovetail can only be seen from the side.

Nice strong joint for drawers. On cheaper dovetail jigs (like the PC4210/4212) both parts are routed at the same time, making them fast to cut once initial setup is done. The Leigh jig requires a bit more time, as you still rout the sides and front separately.

I am with Ray on false fronts, just another piece of wood glued onto the front of your drawer box, typically overlaying the opening, but not necessarily. The handle or pull is then installed such that the bolt goes through the drawer front and the front of your drawer box.

One other thing to note, drawer slides. If you are using slides, you can typically get away with less robust construction. Also I recommend a slide that has a nice stop at the end of the pull. I've dealt with some blum knock-offs that the drawer has a tenancy to fall out, destroyed a bunch of MDF drawers that way, as the fall on the handle, and crack the MDF. Another good reason for a good solid wood drawer front.

I use the handles to align my false fronts when I clamp them during the glue up.

[RayintheUK]

Thanks to Keith (drumpriest) for stepping in while I was sleeping (UK time difference), answering your questions and adding to the thread.

He makes good additional points about quality slides - I prefer the type that requires positive action (usually a lever) to separate the two halves. Accuride(TM) make some very good versions.

I have used wooden false fronts, but mostly I use Medite (water-resistant MDF) because it has a denser core and machines really crisply.

Finally, I rarely glue my false fronts permanently, in case of damage caused by the user. If I make a set of drawers that are identical in size, I'll usually supply a spare false front anyway. Mostly, the handle fixings hold them in place with an initial dab of hot glue (or double-sided tape) during assembly to the boxes if required and a couple of small screws from the inside.

"HTH" = "Hope that helps"

Ray.

[LarryG]

Finally, I rarely glue my false fronts permanently, in case of damage caused by the user.

That's a good thought. I'm going to remember that.

One other point that hasn't been made (I don't think) about false fronts: they give you one last chance to make sure the visible portion of your drawer is in perfect alignment with the surrounding face frame, adjacent doors and drawers, whatever. If the drawer body is built slightly out of square, or the slides are a tick out of kilter, it doesn't matter ... within reason, of course ... because you can adjust the false front independently to "fix" the problem.

[cabinetman]

As long as we're talkin' about false fronts, I always make false fronts. There's much less chance of error. Besides, I think a four sided box by itself is much easier to control throughout its assembly. If a four corner dovetail is used, a false front is required, stands to reason. Likewise I always make slide out bottoms in lieu of a bottom sitting in a four sided groove. It's much easier to replace a drawer front or bottom than a whole drawer.

The production based cabinetry that uses the drawer front for the only front of the drawer is set up to machine those dadoes (sides and bottoms) in the back of the front. The cost factor alone eliminates one member of the drawer configuration, which when multiplied by the thousands of drawers they make is a considerable savings.

[footprintsinconc]

Man, this is a lot of useful information! thanks everyone, let it keep coming.

cabinetman: interesting idea of a removable bottom. so does that mean that you remove the false front and then pull out the bottom (it rides in the a lip cut into the sides and back)?

thanks,

[LarryG]

If a four corner dovetail is used, a false front is required, stands to reason.

Not necessarily. I've seen many beautiful pieces in which the drawers were inset and had exposed dovetails on the fronts, as a design element.

Omar: The usual way to do a removable/replaceable bottom is to cut the back panel of the drawer so that its bottom edge is flush with the tops of the grooves in the sides. As the bottom is slid into the grooves, it goes under the back. The bottom is typically long enough to cover the bottom edge of the back, and is held in place with a couple-few nails or staples, shot into the bottom edge of the back.

[cabinetman]

Not necessarily. I've seen many beautiful pieces in which the drawers were inset and had exposed dovetails on the fronts, as a design element.

Dovetails visible from the front are a "design element" used in some instances. Can be a bit of a distraction for whatever else is relegated to the piece as "design elements". I've done those and had to be careful not to make the overall appeal too "happy looking", or too garish.. Much more expensive and time consuming to replace than a false front. I've seen many pieces that over time and use, faults around the dovetails that emphasize the break in finish or movement issues that cause imperfections in the finish or in the alignnment of the mating edges. Faults or failures like that may not be obvious immediately.

[JR]

Not necessarily. I've seen many beautiful pieces in which the drawers were inset and had exposed dovetails on the fronts, as a design element.

It should also be pointed out that this tecnique is not for the timid woodworker.

JR

[LarryG]

Dovetails visible from the front are a "design element" used in some instances. Can be a bit of a distraction for whatever else is relegated to the piece as "design elements".

Once again, you're back-pedaling by changing the subject, trying to divert the discussion from what you wrote to something completely separate. Design, and the appropriateness of a given element in that design, is a whole 'nother chapter. What we're talking about here is how drawers can be constructed, not how they should be designed.

You wrote, "If a four corner dovetail is used, a false front is required, stands to reason." (Italics added.) And I wrote that this simply isn't necessarily so, because I didn't want the less experienced woodworkers who might be reading this thread to go away with an incorrect impression about what is and is not possible.

[cabinetman]

Once again, you're back-pedaling by changing the subject, trying to divert the discussion from what you wrote to something completely separate. Design, and the appropriateness of a given element in that design, is a whole 'nother chapter. What we're talking about here is how drawers can be constructed, not how they should be designed.

You wrote, "If a four corner dovetail is used, a false front is required, stands to reason." (Italics added.) And I wrote that this simply isn't necessarily so, because I didn't want the less experienced woodworkers who might be reading this thread to go away with an incorrect impression about what is and is not possible.

A whole 'nother chapter can also be said about explaining the removal of a drawer bottom in a thread about MDF for drawer material. For the less experienced woodworker, discussion about the ramifications of exposed dovetails on inset drawers may clear up some impressions of the technique. You were absolutely correct, it is possible to have exposed dovetails for an inset drawer without a false drawer front.

[footprintsinconc]

Man, this is a lot of useful information! thanks everyone, let it keep coming.

cabinetman: interesting idea of a removable bottom. so does that mean that you remove the false front and then pull out the bottom (it rides in the a lip cut into the sides and back)?

thanks,