Question on making rails and stiles

[Anna]

I'm now building the doors for my shop cabinets. I plan on using 1 by 4 pine for both the rails and stiles, eventually cut to just about 2.5" wide. The insert is 1/8" acrylic.

My question is, what's the safest way to cut the grooves without using a router table?

I'm thinking of using the table saw with the pine piece on its side, the blade height about 3/4", and just running the pine through it. I'm a little nervous about the idea of having such a thin piece with not much to hold on to while pushing it through the blade. Of course it's nice that the blade is mostly embedded, so I thought I can just stop before I get all of the pine through.

Any suggestions? I've never done this before, and I'm worried that I might not have thought it through (like the pocket hole screws in the rabbets thing from yesterday).

Thanks.

[radhak]

When i did something similar, i clamped the piece to a 'sliding auxiliary fence' (just made that name up ) and went thru the cuts pretty safely.

This SAF (made that one up too) was inspired by the tenon jigs you see everywhere, but straddled the TS fence : pretty much an 'H' shaped thing made with a tall (around 8-9 inches tall) piece of ply towards the blade and another similar on the other side of the fence, joined together by a 2x4 ripped to the exact width of the fence, so that when you place it over the fence, the 2 pieces of ply slide easily against the 2 faces of the fence, gives me a safe distance to grip, and generally made me happy.

[Tom Miller]

Cutting grooves with the TS like you suggest works perfectly, as long as you take some precautions; partly to make good grooves, and partly to be safe. BTW, don't assume that you're safe as long as the blade is buried in your workpiece. I happen to know first hand (left hand, as a matter of fact) that the workpiece can leave the TS in ways you didn't count on, thus uncovering the blade....

OK, where was I...

Use a feather board to hold your stock against the fence. A fence-mounted featherboard to hold the stock down is a nice touch, but not required. Then, use push sticks, etc. Practice once with the blade lowered to make sure you've covered all the bases.

Personally, I don't think you need a groove any deeper than ~1/4", BTW.

If a well-centered groove is desired, flip your stock end-for-end and run it through a second time.

How are you making the joints, with pocket screws? (How you make the joints can have some bearing on how you do the other stuff....) If you make grooves all the way through on all four pieces, you'll have little cutouts on the ends of the, uhhh, rails? stiles? well, the uppy-downy parts. (Did I just lose a little credibility?)

Regards,
Tom

[Anna]

Radhak,

Cool! Thanks for that tip. Will build something similar. I hate getting my hands too near the blades, and your SAF fits the bill.

Thanks again!

[Anna]

How are you making the joints, with pocket screws? (How you make the joints can have some bearing on how you do the other stuff....) If you make grooves all the way through on all four pieces, you'll have little cutouts on the ends of the, uhhh, rails? stiles? well, the uppy-downy parts. (Did I just lose a little credibility?)

at uppy-downy.

My plan is to have the uppy-downy parts (can never remember which is which either) the full height of the cabinet, then the lefty-righty parts to fit between them (including tenon ends).

I was just going to use glue, but now I think it's probably not a good idea because of the expansion problem. Thanks for mentioning pocket screws. I probably won't have thought of that problem until I'm ready to assemble the parts.

I'm cutting grooves on all the parts, and trim the ends of the lefty-righty ones (am I driving the knowledgeable people crazy yet?) into tenons to fit the ends of the uppy-downies. Does that make sense?

I'm absolutely open to suggestions. I'm obviously not working off a plan here, that's why this project has been running close to disastrous. I'm hoping by the time I'm done with this, I can build acceptable cabinets for the garage.

[ChrisD]

Anna, wood movement across a 2.5" width is really negligible, so gluing up your rail(horizontal)-and-stile(vertical) assembly is not a problem.

Cutting stub tenons at the ends of the rails as you described totally makes sense. It will fill the groove at the ends of the stiles ("the little cut-outs on the uppy-downy parts" that Tom was referring to).

[Tom Miller]

Ah, I may have confused things when I mentioned pocket screws -- for some reason I had "face-frame" on the brain. (That, and your earlier ?'s about pocket screws....)

So, that's probably why you're thinking 3/4" deep groove, because that'll be your tenon length, also? To be honest, that may not be the strongest door, especially if they'll get rough treatment, but they could be OK. If the members are ~2.5" wide, using a 1.5" to 1.75" long tenon would be better. But you'll have to figure out how to cut the grooves deeper at the ends to make the deep mortises. Glue alone will be fine, too, with no expansion trouble.

One way to do it: after you cut the grooves to whatever depth, set the TS blade to ~1.5", and just cut in to the ends until the mortise is fully cut. Part of your groove will be overcut, but you'll still have plenty at the right depth to hold your panel correctly.

Regards,
Tom

[JR]

You people are cracking me up!

Lefty-righty = rails
Uppy-downy = stiles

I remember this because the rail is like a hand rail. It wouldn't be uppy-downy, now would it?

For the rail.stile connection, here's what I'd suggest. Make Radhak's SAF so that the stiles can also be run through in a vertical orientation. Keeping the blade the same distance from the fence as when you create the grooves, cut a deep groove in the ends of the stiles. The depth of the groove on the end should be equal to the width of the rail.

The rails should have tenons on the ends. The tenons can be the full width of the rail. The length of the temon should equal the with of the stiles. The thckness of the tenon should equal the width of the groove.

Using this technique the ends of the tenons will show handsomely on the sides of the stiles, and there will be no worry about gaps and such.

JR

[Anna]

Thanks, Chris. So I'm back to just plain glue then.

Tom, thanks for the suggestion about making the tenons deeper. I'll probably do that. I wasn't going for a really heavy duty door (I'm using pine and acrylic), and I'll be the only one abusing them anyway. When I get better at this, I'll use better wood like oak or maple rather than the cheapo stuff.

Trying to reorganize my shed now to prepare for the next projects. Hopefully finish the cabinets this weekend (doors and all).

Thanks again for the suggestions (and the vocabulary lesson, too!).

[Anna]

For the rail.stile connection, here's what I'd suggest. Make Radhak's SAF so that the stiles can also be run through in a vertical orientation. Keeping the blade the same distance from the fence as when you create the grooves, cut a deep groove in the ends of the stiles. The depth of the groove on the end should be equal to the width of the rail.

The rails should have tenons on the ends. The tenons can be the full width of the rail. The length of the temon should equal the with of the stiles. The thckness of the tenon should equal the width of the groove.

Using this technique the ends of the tenons will show handsomely on the sides of the stiles, and there will be no worry about gaps and such.

That's a bridle joint, right? (See, I do know some terms or at least heard of some terms)

My saw kerf is 1/8", I think the acrylic is 0.09", so it's a little smaller than the saw kerf.

When I make the tenon for this joint, how can I be sure that it's centered, or that it will fit the stiles so that the rails and stiles are flush with each other?

Will this work:

On the SAF, I can add a 1/8" hardboard as a spacer and cut the grooves on the rails and stiles as previously described. Then to leave a 1/8" tenon, I'll add another 1/8" hardboard as a spacer and run it, then remove both hard boards and run that. Then I can use the crosscut sled to cut off the two face pieces. Does that make sense?

[JR]

I guess that would sort of work, Anna, but it doesn't guarantee it'll be centered.

For centering you have to run the rail through on one side, then , keeping the same end of the rail on the saw table, flip it over and run it through again. By definition, this is now centered.

The trick is to get the fence set up so you that you end up with a 1/8" tenon. You're going to have to some math on this. I think it would be:

(wood thickness) - 1/8" - ((distance from left side of blade)x2) = 0

BTW - it is also recommended that you score the rail at the point that will be the shoulder of the tenon. If you just run the rail through as we've discussed up to now, you run the risk that there will be some chipout. You'll want to set the fence to be the length of the tenon as measured from the left side of the blade, with the height set to equal the waste depth on the tenon cheek. You just lay the rail on the tablesaw and using your SMT or miter just run the board through on the face sides.

Before I get in trouble with the safety police, I will also point out a detail on this "scoring cut" that you should know. You should clamp a false fence on the part of the rip fence closest the operator. Take your measurements to the false fence. Lay board on the SMT and butt it up against the false fence. Now when you move the SMT forward the rail should no longer be in contact with false fence when it hits the blade. This advice is not critical for this type of cut, but is mandatory when doing similar cuts that go all the way through the stock.

Good Luck,
JR

[Black wallnut]

As long as your doors are not huge a stub tenon will be plenty strong enough. To use a through tenon would be overkill. Think of how many hardwood raised panel doors have been built over the years with just cope and stick joinrey, think rail and stile router bits. 1/8" acrylic really weighs a bunch less than a hardwood raised panel. The only thing bothering me though is the 1/8" part. Have you considered cutting 1/4" wide slots and then using an applied 1/4round molding on the inside holding the pane in place? If you did that your tenon would be sized just right.

[Anna]

JR, I thought that if I do it the way I described it one post ago, the groove may not be centered, but at least the rails and stiles will be flush. Unless I've miscalculated something.

Mark, I do have some 1/4" acrylic sheets, so I can use those instead of the 1/8".

I've changed my mind on this so many times I'm getting dizzy. I think I'll sit this one out this weekend and think about it some more. I do have to learn to plan these woodworking projects out before I start them, though.

Oh, well. I'm still having a ball.

[Black wallnut]

Mark, I do have some 1/4" acrylic sheets, so I can use those instead of the 1/8".

I've changed my mind on this so many times I'm getting dizzy. I think I'll sit this one out this weekend and think about it some more. I do have to learn to plan these woodworking projects out before I start them, though.

Oh, well. I'm still having a ball.

Anna with a centered 1/4" grove you could still use the 1/8" pane. Assemble the rails and stiles without the panes, use a router on the inside to cut a rabbet that would be ~=1/2" deep by 1/4" wide, then use quarter round molding to hold the panes in place. Perhaps a picture is better:

[Anna]

Anna with a centered 1/4" grove you could still use the 1/8" pane. Assemble the rails and stiles without the panes, use a router on the inside to cut a rabbet that would be ~=1/2" deep by 1/4" wide, then use quarter round molding to hold the panes in place.

Hi, Mark,

I was just reading the December 2006 issue of Workbench, and they showed a door where the rails and stiles are assembled with pocket screws, then a rabbet was created around the inside (using a router) to hold a glass pane. It's pretty much what you described. And I don't have to worry about making Radhak's SAF. For now anyway.

This seems to be the simplest way to go for a light duty door. I guess I can use my nail gun to attach the molding, right?

Thanks for the suggestions. Funny how making the door evolved from my original plan (which would have required building a jig to accomplish) to this, which looks simpler and faster to build. Looks safer, too.

I really appreciate all the help from everyone.