Tightening an M&T joint

[ironhat]

Well, I took the plunge and started to build 'something' else. It's a shoe rack for just inside the back door so I'm making a frame with M&Ts with raised panels (get a gut wrench just thinking of getting far into this and butchering it). So, I made my first two M&Ts with an attachment on my Shopsmith. Do **not** waste your money on this attachment for the older machines. Even with a vertical support under the table there was too much flex for the amount of force required to drill the mortices and they ended up skewed. I decided to correct them my pruning the tenon. Oops, now they're sloppy but the faces of the rail and stile are flush now. I don't have it in me to attempt a spline to spread the tenon - can imagine a too-tight fit and getting the darn tenon stuck part way in the mortise. So, can I successfully salvage these two joints with glue mixed with sawdust or Gorilla glue? I've researched the archives but the more advanced techniques are beyond my abilities and mental state (no joke). Should I consider a couple of pegs in each joint to make up for the poor fit?
Later,
Chiz

[niki]

What I did when it happen to me once is, I've glue a thin strip of wood (with Super glue) to the tenon and sand it slowly till it fits snugly.

By the way, Gorilla glue expands and fill gaps, but it does not have any structural strength as filler, only cosmetics.

niki

[mikel]

I have used cotton fabric glued on the tennon let it dry and then assemble...


...m

[cabinetman]

I agree with Niki in adding of thin wood to the tenon, or the mortise if need be, but I would rather use TBII and clamp it up till it dries, then shape to fit.



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats

[SARGE..g-47]

Evneing Chiz...

Niki got one solution with cut an shim a piece back on and then take it down to size. I always make the cut tenon slightly oversize and then pare it down to fit the exact mortise it will fit in. I do the mortise first.

And if ya are just feelin' lazy.. wrap it with a roll of guaze bandage and take two aspirin. The pain will go away! ha.. ha...

Regards..

[eddy merckx]

Hi Chiz

One thing that works pretty well is to just glue the old tenon cheek cut offs back on ( if you still have them). Then you can re-cut the tenons as wide as you need them.

[ironhat]

Evneing Chiz...
<snip>
And if ya are just feelin' lazy.. wrap it with a roll of guaze bandage and take two aspirin. The pain will go away! ha.. ha...

Regards..

Wise guy! (LOL) All those suggestions sound better than building a fire with that nice cherry. You confirmed my suspicions about the Gorilla glue, Niki. When I found that the flimsy table gave me a twisted mortise I trimmed both cheeks equally instead of just on the tight end of them. That's how I managed to mess that up. At least I only have two of eight to repair. Counting my blessings, I am.
Many thanks,
Chiz

PS Some of the edges got a little blade burn from ripping with the wrong blade (60tooth) and I was shocked to find the next day that they had already bowed slightly. Now I can't run a shallow pass on the jointer to remove them. Boy, it doesn't take long, does it!?

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Ironhat...

Acutally I wasn't kiddin' about wrapping it with a roll of guaze. I was kiddin' about the aspirin which after just spending 12 hours in the shop, I took to make the pain go away. :>)

A friend an pro furniture maker and repairer up in Va. has stated that he has found cotton rags wrapped around tenons on antiques he pulled apart to repair. He on occasion will use gauze as he has deadlines to meet as a pro. The gauze will work fine I am told. Never used it myself as I don't do dead-lines or go to malls.. ha.. ha...

Regards...

[ironhat]

Some of the old craftsmen knew more than we give them credit for didn't they, Sarge!? I saw a documentary on the Mormon Tabernacle in SLC, built in the late 1800's with a domed roof. They went into the support network in that roof and found that when some of the wood split they would wrap it in rawhide. As it dried it became very tight and is still that way today. That stuff is intriguing to me. I may get to the tenons later this afternoon. Do you have a suggestion for how much larger than the frame I should make the raised panel? I was thinking 1/4" on all sides.
Later,
Chiz

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Chiz...

And you are correct about the old craftsman. In the current thinking mode of having to have the latest, greatest.. I sometimes have to scratch my head and chuckle. I had an uncle that was an excellent carpenter and furniture builder when I was growing up in rural metro-politan county just outside Atlanta.

He and his cronies built houses with the use of hand saws, brace and bits, hand planes, etc... Those houses still stand as a rock and so does the house his father built well over 100 years ago now. And you won't see a crooked wall inside as seems to be the norm with new construction now. :>)

To answer your question as to how much larger the panels should be built bigger than the frame on each side:

To me it would be determined by how wide the face frames are. All I ever wanted to be as a kid was a "timber-framer". That line of work was almost obselete by the time I did my military duty and returned from VN in 1969. So... I'm not a timber-framer, but.....

With a natural instinct from a timber-framers frame of mind, I tend to hedge to bigger than I know will be sufficeint. If 1/4" is enough, I would probably go 3/8".. etc. etc. I have built a lot of work-benchs for freinds over the years to satisfy the urge for timber-framing. I design and build them to with-stand tornado, earth-quake force. "Like a rock" as they say.

I just mocked up a country kithchen table base nite fore last. The tenons on the stretchers to legs are 2 1/2' tall.. 3/4" wide and 2 3/8" deep with 1/4 inch shoulders. The tops of the legs are 4' x 4" and taper to 3" to the inside. Is it more than I need to avoid collapse from the weight of a meal placed on top or someone leaning or sitting. Yep..... but with all that in mind and the fact that I might just sit a 55 gallon barrel of "grits" on top or re-build an engine in a pinch... I do it my way much unless the "First Lady" rolls her eyes with enough concern for delicacy to back off "full throttle". ha... ha...

Regards for a pleasant day and a Happy New Year..

[siliconbauhaus]

that's a nice looking table base you have there sarge

[SARGE..g-47]

Thanks silicon...

I suggested adding a Veritas twin tail to one end to squeeze fresh orange juice or a lazy susan in the center with a statue of the Marines raising the U.S. flag on Iwo Jima, but got over-ruled as usual by charming wife.

Even though our taste seem to differ, I suppose it is for her and she gets to make the call...... this time anyway. ha.. ha...

Regards...

[ironhat]

With age come some wisdom... sometimes - LOL! Be sure to post the completed piece where and how it's being used.

Thanks again,
Chiz