Organic Glue?

[leehljp]

On a penturning forum that I visit regularly, one fellow asked for an all organic glue. He was given a link to a hide glue site for making your own glue. According to the instructions, it takes 6 months to make it.

Do any of you know of purely orgainic glues that are readily available?

His quote: "I cannot find an all organic glue. Or even a recipe for making one. Maybe there is one out there that I am unaware of or maybe something like wood glue is "organic". I don;t know."
(The pen turner has been asked to make an "all organic" pen - except for the ink refill.)

My suggestion was:
"For the life of me I cannot remember but I can almost see the can - there used to be a can of powder readily avialable at most hardware stores that you mixed water with to make a wood glue/cement. IIRC, it was basically a hide or natural based powdered glue. Last time I used it was in the mid -80s - before I came to Japan, but I used it all the way back to the mid 50's.

Do any of you remember this? It seems like it "Rock" in the name or maybe I am getting that confused with something else. Old age is getting close.

Any helps or suggesions would be appreciated.

[cabinetman]

Hank

I don't know if this will help, but here is some info on glue. BTW, a totally organic glue would be subject to mold.
An adhesive consisting of organic colloids of a complex protein structure obtained from animal materials such as bones and hides in meat packing and tanning industries. Glue contains two groups of proteins: chondrin, which accounts for its adhesive strength, and glutin, which contributes jelling strength.

Animal glue is a protein derived from the simple hydrolysis of collagen, which is the principal protein constituent of animal hide, connective tissue and bones. Collagen, animal glue, and gelatin are very closely related as to protein and chemical composition. Gelatin is considered to be hydrolized collagen: C 102 H 149 O 38 N 31 + H 2 O = C 102 H 151 O 39 N 31 which gives an approximate chemical composition for glue of 51.29% carbon, 6.39% hydrogen, 24.13% oxygen, and 18.19% nitrogen. There may be minor variations in the composition of collagens from different sources, as well as in the composition of animal glues imparted by variations in processing techniques; however, the composition of glues and gelatins having widely varying case histories are still very similar.

As a protein, animal glue is essentially composed of polyamides of certain alpha-amino acids. It is believed that these acids are not present in glue in the free state, but rather as residues which are joined together by the elimination of water to form long polypeptide chains.

Glue is a polydisperse system containing mixtures of similar molecules of widely differing molecular weights. Because so wide a range of molecular weights is present, the molecular weight of glue is always an average, ranging from 20,000 to 250,000.

Hide and bone glues make up the two major types of animal glue. Hide glue, which is by far the superior of the two, yields a fairly neutral pH in solution, usually in the range of 6.5 to 7.4, although wider variations are possible. Bone glue is generally acidic, having pH values of 5.8 to 6.3. A glue having a high acidity absorbs less water and tends to set more slowly than a glue having low acidity. A glue having a pH greater than 7.0 tends to foam, and has a shorter shelf life than a glue that is slightly acidic.

Animal glues are soluble only in water, and are insoluble in oils, waxes, organic solvents, and absolute alcohol; however, they may be emulsified in water-oil or oil-water systems under proper conditions. One of the more interesting properties of animal glue solutions is their ability to pass from a liquid to a jelled state upon cooling, and then revert to the liquid state upon re-heating.

The important properties of glue include its jelly strength or consistency (gel strength), viscosity, melting point, adhesive strength, tensile strength or elasticity, optical rotation, swelling capacity, rate of setting, foaming characteristics, reactions to grease (whether acid or alkaline), as well as appearance, odor, color and keeping characteristics. Of these, gell strength and viscosity are most often used for determining the grade of a particular glue.

Regardless of the source of the protein, the glue manufacturing process consists essentially of washing the stock, crushing or shredding the bones or hides, soaking in a lime solution to eliminate hair and flesh, boiling to extract the gelatinous material, gelling, and, finally, drying. The resulting hard, brittle sheets of glue are then broken into pieces or flakes, or ground into powder.

Glue as such is much too brittle for use in bookbinding; therefore a plasticizer, such as glycerin, or a less expensive substitute such asSORBITOL , often combined with glycols and tackifiers, are added to improve elasticity and resilience. These so-called flexible glues are usually prepared from high quality grades of hide glue, with the ratio of plasticizer(s) to dry glue controlling the degree of flexibility that is imparted. In addition, glue, being an organic material, is susceptible to mold; consequently preservatives, such as beta naphthol, or the safer phenols, e.g., p-phenyl phenol, are added to prevent mold and bacterial growth. Deodorants, such as terpinol, are also employed in commercial glues.

The wide acceptance of glue as an adhesive stems from its unique ability to deposit a tacky viscous film from a warm water solution, which, upon cooling a few degrees, passes into a firm jelly state producing an immediate, moderately strong initial bond. Subsequent drying provides a permanent, strong, and resilient bond.

The use of glue as an adhesive dates from earliest recorded times. Whoever discovered that a strong adhesive could be produced by cooking pieces of animal hide, or perhaps bone, in water has never been ascertained, but archeological discoveries indicate that the

Egyptians used glue more than 4,000 years ago. The practical manufacture of glue can be traced back directly to 1690 in the Netherlands. Shortly thereafter, or about 1700, the English began making glue and established its manufacture as a permanent industry. Elijah Upjohn is considered by some authorities to have been the first to manufacture glue in the United States, in 1808.

In addition to its use as an adhesive in bookbinding, glue is also used for gumming, for tub-sizing paper, and as a general adhesive in papermaking.

The term "glue" is sometimes used loosely in a general sense as synonymous with "adhesive."



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[leehljp]

Good info on glue.

In the case of what the pen turner is looking for - he was "commissioned" to make a totally organic pen. While we might try and argue finer points of glue or otherwise, when a person "commissions" a creation with specific requests, the creator is obligated to do that. Bear in mind that "I" would estimate that this pen is going to be a minimum of $200.00 more than like much more.

As to the mold issue. I am wondering if that is a little misleading. Organic glues were used for many many years without it being a problem. Lots and lots of VALUABLE antique furniture world wide hundreds of years old used organic / natural glues made from, as you mentioned, hooves, hides, fish, bone, tree sap etc.

Another note: PENTURNING has a category that is often very different from most of woodworking thinking, although it does exist in woodworking at the highest levels of professionalism. There is always someone who wants a pen that is totally different in this way, that way or another. One pen aficionado wants a totally organicly constructed pen. For what reasons, I do not know. The fellow that makes them sells pens for $100's of dollars each and has agreed. Also bear in mind that this is a commission that allows several months or a year to come to fruition, so the request is not taken lightly.

To these guys, a pen is not just a pen.

[cabinetman]

Hank

I can appreciate the desires of those who spend the money. I will testify under oath that I have fabricated furniture and designs that I politely explained the drawbacks and at time asked that a release of liability and/or disclaimer be part of the contract documents. There were commissions that I refused to be a part of due to either a health or safety issue.

As far as glue goes, the fabricator should know what works for what situation. In some cases when hyde glue was required for the natural/organic request, if the situation permitted use in my estimation, I went with that process. I've repaired many pieces that were hyde glue assembled. I find its stability questionable. Some joints can be loosened by heat or an excess of hot moist ambient air. Extreme changes in humidity and temperature also seem to have an effect on its state.

Some organic glues (like the glue made from rice) don't seem to have the required strength to hold a furniture joint, but work fine for paper products. Just as the disappearance of the steam engine from our roadways to an internal combustion engine, so has the development of other products taken to new technology.

I'm not saying this applies to me, but for that little devil in us, there is that statement that goes "What you can't see..."



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[wardprobst]

Hank,
I think you are remembering casein glue. Here is a site with a recipe to make it and a comparison test between that and PVA glue for strength, etc.

Best,
DP

http://www.sci-journal.org/index.php....php&c_check=1

[frogmorton]

Was it Durhams "Rock Hard" water putty, it's more of a filler than a glue.